Johnny Skeptic

In Second Corinthians 11:14-15 Paul says “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.�? Following Paul's same line of reasoning the verses can just as well be translated “And no marvel; for the evil God of the Bible has transformed himself into an apparent angel of light in order to deceive people.�? In other words, Paul assumed that he knew the attributes of God and Satan, but if both beings exist there is no possible way that he could have known who was who.

Thomas II

I think that what Paul means to say here is that there are some who call themselves disciples of Christ who appear to be good people when in fact they are evil...Then Paul compares them to Satan (and Co.) who appear to be angels of light when in fact they are not...In the end,Paul says, they'll get what they deserve...

That is what I understood there...but I could be wrong... :huh:

Thomas II

Wait a minute...Are you saying that the YHWH of the Bible could be Satan,
passing himself for God?
Cause if that is what you mean,that is a darn interesting concept...

Johnny Skeptic

That is exactly what I am saying. The texts say "therefore Satan HIMSELF is transformed into an angel of light" and that "it is no great thing if his ministers ALSO be transformed into ministers of righteousness." My theory is not original or even recent. When I told Dr. Robert Price about this issue some time ago, he told me that many centuries ago a group of people, I forget who (I can find out from Bob again if anyone wants me to), believed that God was evil. I must thank Paul for providing skeptics with an excellent argument against the supposed goodness of God. Of course, there is no tangible evidence at all of the goodness of God in the world today. There is in fact every indication that the distribution of tangible good things and bad things occur in accordance with the laws of physics.

gregor

I believe that you're thinking of the gnostics ref: God being evil.

Jedi Mind Trick

So what you're saying is that in this verse is evidence that Paul was Gnostic? Where Yahweh = Demiurge and Jesus = the good god who frees mankind from the Demiurge?
Or are you saying that Paul advocated a form of Dystheism?

Johnny Skeptic

The main issue is what Paul meant, not which people believed that God was evil. Paul meant that Satan pretends to be good, and that his ministers do too. Everyone knows bad people who pretend to be good.

In his 'Believer's Bible Commentary,' William MacDonald says the following:

"This verse tells us that he (Satan) masquerades as 'an angel of light.' Perhaps by way of illustration we might say he poses as a minister of the gospel, wearing religious clothing, and standing in the pulpit of a fashionable church. He uses religious words such as 'God', 'Jesus,' and 'the Bible.'" The problem for Christians is that if both God and Satan exist, it is impossible for anyoe to tell who is who. The Bible writers are responsible for this. They depict a God who allows plagues, tsunamis and other awful things to occur. They also depict a God who is not in the least bit interested in clearly showing himself to everyone. Such being the case, why should any Christian conclude that God is any more interested in proving who is who than he is in preventing plagues and tsunamis and clearly showing himself to everyone?

Amaleq13

Was it Marcion?

Johnny Skeptic

I will contact Bob and find out. I request that Christians comment on this issue as well. Over a year ago I debated the goodness of God at the Theology Web with a Christian philosopher that lasted for a number of months. He finally gave up. It is one matter for Christians to claim that the goodness of God was apparent in tangible ways thousands of years ago, but today is another matter entirely.

Thomas II

This morning when I read your post I initially posted back the superficial thought about 11:14-15...Then I thought...Wait a minute...Johnny HAS to mean something more than that...THEN it hit me...BAM!...I have been thinking something similar for so long!!...I kept looking at this character
"YHWH" and kept thinking..."hmmm...this ain't good...this is some twisted elemental..."
My thought about it is that this elemental is NOT god...
It looks like it has seated itself in the place of god but it ain't god...
That is the way it looks to me now...
The story of Job also presents a situation where evil seems to be teaming with god...
I want to hear more about what you got to say about this because I think that you are on to something...