mountainman

Hi Philosopher Jay, maryhelena et al,

Another fascinating thread that illuminates the identification of various sequential layers of themes and plots that may well have been integral to the explanation of why we find the story - and particularly the part played by Pilate and the Jews - as it appears in its final state.

Let me first say that I agree with Philosopher Jay's contra analysis of Fernando Bermejo-Rubio's arguments for an historical foundation to the Jesus figure for the three reasons provided, especially the second (Criteria of Embarrassment). Secondly I also agree - in part - with mary Helen's following response as follows:

These historical events incorporated into the NT may extend outside of the exclusively Hasmonean/Jewish history into the consideration of figures in Graeco-Roman history. It is not certain in my mind that Hasmonean/Jewish history could provide a high profile wandering sage and healer as can be cited in the figure of Apollonius of Tyana, for example. The use of Greek and not Hebrew for the Jesus story mitigates a much wider net for these possible historical backgrounds used by the authors of the NT.

One of the strengths of Philosopher Jay's arguments is that there is abundant evidence - both ancient and modern - that demonstrates the physical process of differing versions of the plot of many stories (and of course movie productions). OTOH I can also appreciate the need, highlighted in MH's response above, that - at some point in the investigation - we have to start naming names. I totally agree, even if these names are simply put forward as WHAT-IF hypotheses, such analysis will be fruitful.

However I would like to mention another dimension of the investigation related to the naming of names, and to the study of literary and film productions, which Philosopher Jay has been using to illustrate the issue of plot revisions. Inherent in all these arguments is a publically circulated physical production - whether textual (books, comics, etc) or multimedia (films, documentaries, movies, etc). All these things had individuals or organisations behind the final production. So too must have had the production of the NT literature. This is natural and unavoidable.

The point I wish to make is that we need to explore the naming of names, not just of the characters within the Jesus Story of the NT, but of those people who acted as editors and/or publishers in the history of the publically circulated physical production of the NT.

Someone must have edited the earliest new testaments and scholarship is convinced that whoever performed this earliest editing introduced a universal "nomina sacra" system across all the canonical books. It is I feel necessary to try and name the names of this earliest publisher/editor. Logic dictates with the examination of the evidence, that such an editor/publisher must have existed at an early point in the whole process.





εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

aa5874

The story that Pilate fiound no fault with Jesus and was crucified because of the Jews is mere propaganda and was written in opposition to the claims by Josephus that the Roman soldiers Hated the Jews and would crucify them just for fun.

Wars of the Jews 5.11

semiopen

I am not stating this unequivocally, you are stating the opposite unequivocally.

Probably like you, I remember reading an article many years ago where the Jews didn't crucify point was made, and I was very impressed. However, that was from the 1960s or 70's probably and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.

The only thing that suggests that the Jews didn't crucify is the Talmud, and then only because it doesn't list it. I'm not sure how Talah (Hanging/impalement) plays into this - the Talmud actually gives the details of how the executions were carried out. Of course, the Talmud cannot be taken as any kind of authority on historical matters.

Regarding the opposite, we have Talah in the bible.

We have Alexander_Jannaeus

This is before the Romans were in Palestine. I don't know about Josephus but combine him with the DSS, etc and that looks like a stronger poker hand than the Talmud.

Anyway, like you, I used the Jews didn't crucify argument myself when I was younger. It still embarrasses me to have fallen for this dubious BS. Unfortunately, not the stupidest thing I've ever done.

Clivedurdle

Is there another huge assumption here - about "the Roman occupation"?

Was it actually as bad in Palestine as alleged, or was it bad for certain troublesome groups who got bashed?

Are we looking at a proto-iraq? The Romans opened a pre-existing can of worms, but actually their aims were Pax Romana - acknowledge the emperor, pay taxes and get on with your life. The problem was extremists in Palestine.

Remember, this area is the front line with Persia.

maryhelena

Roman occupation? Foreign occupation? Maybe if one has never lived under occupation one does not know how that feels......Closer to home - a trip across the Irish Sea might provide some insights...:constern01:

Yep, methinks the Irish and the Jews don't take kindly to foreign occupation of their land...Remember, also, the days when that cry of Uhuru went up in British occupied parts of Africa......??

semiopen

I was thinking even finding the wood for the crosses would be an issue.

Actually I've been looking at Parthia recently.

The Romans were stopped by Parthia, about the same time as their occupation of Palestine.

Defeat of Rome in the East: Crassus, the Parthians, and the Disastrous Battle of Carrhae, 53 BC (or via: amazon.co.uk)

is $15 on Kindle.

or

Rome's Wars in Parthia: Blood in the Sand (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Interesting that the Talmud doesn't mention them.

Anyway, one would think that this situation would have serious implications for politics in Palestine.

Clivedurdle

But if you are living in the middle of an area that continually has various armies trampling over you, and that is the reality of life, why get so upset about the latest? And is this not reading modern thinking back? Tom Holland in his books describes the tooing and froing of the various armies and warlords.

It was a fact of life, like plague and death in childbirth and slavery.

Something strange is going on in the creation of "The Enemy"

maryhelena

So the black people in SA should just have learned to live with apartheid??

That not how people should have to live - hope springs eternal - what is does not have to be.....Utopia might never be reached - but the striving for betterment of the social/political situation is a driving force that some people will harness - time and time again.....

Whatever the context in which one bases ones identity, whether that is race, culture, religion or country - stamp ones feet on a person's identity - and be prepared for the fallout.....Why? Challenge reality and one will come up short....We are not context free - we are born into a social network - and it encodes us with it's identity...early imprinting and all that......

semiopen

I think that there are basic misunderstandings about the period.

For one thing the destruction of the Temple wasn't as earthshaking as it's made out to be. I think that was a little less significant than 9/11 Twin Towers.

The Bar Kochba war was probably more important than the Temple. Now that seems like a footnote.

The Jews seem to have resisted more than we would expect. I sort of think that this was because they were assholes. Probably the truth is somewhere in between my view and Mary's.

Chili

Nothing has changed except that now a new enemy is added and those are the Catholics today in a conflict that is provoked by the [self proclaimed] Christians as "good news' messengers to Catholics.

These are those who ran away with Jesus and cling to him as personal savior and will die for that and beyond that they will fight for that to die.

They also cry 'wolf' today if a Jew is not elevated as God's OT favorite and feel obliged to serve him now to put themselves next in line when their 'happy day' shall come (and already have an airstrip in place in their holy land that they call Israel just so He will not have to face those Romans a second time). Hence, for them it is popular sport to step on a Catholic to raise this Jew and will support them in the protection of their Holy Land to be.

So maybe a final show-down will follow wherein the early Jewish protestants raise arms against the modern Catholic protestants so that their new world will come about.