Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 01-11-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

Quote:

sugarhitman wrote
Thus the curse of Elisha was not of God.

To curse someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. (but he did not call for the bears,

vs

One one side, we have Elisha, who happens to use the name of the lord in vain (was there specific punishment assigned to this in the OT?), we have evil forces acting upon his pronouncement, we have God not doing anything to interfere, nor set Elisha straight on his sin.

On the other side, we have the children being punished for taunting (which is what all children do, have done, and will do forevermore) by God, because the curse was authorized and followed-through by God.

The "one" side implies God in all probability will not interfere, and would let humanity curse itself into the ground without being able or wanting to do anything about it. Equally, it would be possible for people of great faith to bless the world out of world hunger and disbelief. It seems that all this would imply that people of great faith don't need to be Christians to do this, or else only a Christian's curse or blessing would have any effect. But it seems you think all humans have this power.

Quote:

I in no way said that Elisha was tapping into "dark powers." Rather it was dark powers acting on the curse of Elisha.

Does this mean that dark powers are constantly awaiting curses to be uttered by which they can finally get off of their invisible spirit-butts and have free card for making this curse come through? On a similar note, would you think Benny Hinn's curse on those who oppose him (other Christians) will work on them?

The "other" side says that it was God, not just honoring a curse uttered by his personal prophet, but that it was dead-on correct to happen like that.

Now, which one of these two is it? What does the Bible want to say about it?

Robert, I thought you said (in another post) that children who die all go to heaven. Or were you referring only to unborn babies?

When Jesus and the Apostles warned against cursing whom were they talking to? Christians. The people of faith. The blessings (prayers) of christians (true christians) are powerful. They should never curse anyone (which Jesus forbids) because cursing (to wish harm to another human being) is largely an occult satanic invention. Cursing is prominent in all these occult groups, while blessing is prominent in biblical christianity.

Spiritual evil comes alive through DISOBEDIENCE.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Spiritual evil comes alive through DISOBEDIENCE.

I agree. When God's murders babies, and kills innocent animals, his evil nature comes alive through his disobedience to his own rules.

I invite you to participate in a thread at the GRD Forum that is titled "Justifying Biblegod's Atrocities." The God of the Bible is the most dangerous and destructive being in the world by far. He even empowered a vicious Devil to help him terrorize mankind. He claims that he is merciful, but he endorses unmerciful torment. Since he broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to conquer Tyre, he is a liar.

In another thread, you criticized Pharoah for mistreating the Jews. You embarrassed yourself since you believe that God's protection of the Jews was conditional upon good behavior. If the Jews had acted right, God would not have allowed Pharoah to enslave them. If Pharoah enslaved them, it was their own fault. Not only that, but what about Jewish babies who would have unfairly suffered many times during Jewish history because of the disobedience of their parents?

What about Jewish history after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead? Was God still protecting the Jews conditional upon good behavior? If so, what kinds of good behavior? For instance, what about the Jewish Old Testament practice of putting people to death for working on the Sabbath Day? After Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, Jews would still have been bound by Old Testament law. So, after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, did God consider it to be good behavior when Jews still killed their own people for working on the Sabbath Day?

How would you like your serving of crow cooked?

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

Quote:

sugarhitman wrote
Thus the curse of Elisha was not of God.

To curse someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. (but he did not call for the bears,

vs

One one side, we have Elisha, who happens to use the name of the lord in vain (was there specific punishment assigned to this in the OT?), we have evil forces acting upon his pronouncement, we have God not doing anything to interfere, nor set Elisha straight on his sin.

On the other side, we have the children being punished for taunting (which is what all children do, have done, and will do forevermore) by God, because the curse was authorized and followed-through by God.

The "one" side implies God in all probability will not interfere, and would let humanity curse itself into the ground without being able or wanting to do anything about it. Equally, it would be possible for people of great faith to bless the world out of world hunger and disbelief. It seems that all this would imply that people of great faith don't need to be Christians to do this, or else only a Christian's curse or blessing would have any effect. But it seems you think all humans have this power.

Quote:

I in no way said that Elisha was tapping into "dark powers." Rather it was dark powers acting on the curse of Elisha.

Does this mean that dark powers are constantly awaiting curses to be uttered by which they can finally get off of their invisible spirit-butts and have free card for making this curse come through? On a similar note, would you think Benny Hinn's curse on those who oppose him (other Christians) will work on them?

The "other" side says that it was God, not just honoring a curse uttered by his personal prophet, but that it was dead-on correct to happen like that.

Now, which one of these two is it? What does the Bible want to say about it?

Robert, I thought you said (in another post) that children who die all go to heaven. Or were you referring only to unborn babies?

When Jesus and the Apostles warned against cursing whom were they talking to? Christians. The people of faith. The blessings (prayers) of christians (true christians) are powerful. They should never curse anyone (which Jesus forbids) because cursing (to wish harm to another human being) is largely an occult satanic invention. Cursing is prominent in all these occult groups, while blessing is prominent in biblical christianity.

Spiritual evil works through DISOBEDIENCE.

"....in which you onced walked according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE." Ephesians 1

"He who commits sin is a servent (slave) of sin"---Jesus

"Therefore do not let sin REIGN in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts. And do not present your members as INSTRUMENTS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS to sin... Romans 6

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slave whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or obedience leading to righteousness." Romans 6

"There is none rightoues, no, not one...the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS.....for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...Romans 3

Okay some kids makes fun of Elisha, then he cursed them in the name of the Lord (which means he said "I curse you in the name of the Lord") continues his journey. Some bears come out and kill some of them. Because he was a prophet his curse was more potent. Just like Balaam's curses who was a prophet (do you also believe that God was behind Balaam's curses? I think not) these curses were more potent. Curses invokes satanic power, which is why it is prominent in witchcraft, Satanism and other occult groups. To wish harm against someone is a sin, Elisha sinned. When Jesus was ridiculed and beaten he uttered not a curse, but asked the Father to forgive them. which shows THAT GOD DOES NOT SUPPORT THE WISH (CURSING) FOR HARM TO OTHERS. Especially against kids who dont know any better. STOP BLAMING GOD FOR THE MISTAKES OF MEN, FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND WILL.

And to answer your last question. Yes all children will go to heaven because there is no sinning when it comes to children (should I really have to point this out?). Read the story in Numbers 14 when God punishes Israel, where he confined them to wander in the desert for 40 years because of their rebellion. Those 20 years and older he said would not be allowed to enter the promised land. But your little ones I will bring in (into the promised land). Who were the little ones? Everyone under the age of 20. It appears by this story that God makes one responsible for his sins when they fully mature at 20 years and older. So I believe that children and teens will not see Hell only mature adults.

And before I go you noted that christians OPPOSED Binny Hinn (one of the most fraudulent so-called apostles of this era. Like Pat Robertson, Paul Crouch, Jimmy Swaggert, basically all the televangalists, who are exploiting the Gospel for money and fame. Paul warned that these types will come...especially in the last days.) OPPOSING (by this I assume you mean EXSPOSING) someone is not cursing someone. Men such as these need not to be cursed by christians, for they are already cursed. The end is never good for such wolves in sheeps clothing. :wave:

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Spiritual evil comes alive through DISOBEDIENCE.

I agree. When God's murders babies, and kills innocent animals, his evil nature comes alive through his disobedience to his own rules.

I invite you to participate in a thread at the GRD Forum that is titled "Justifying Biblegod's Atrocities." The God of the Bible is the most dangerous and destructive being in the world by far. He even empowered a vicious Devil to help him terrorize mankind. He claims that he is merciful, but he endorses unmerciful torment. Since he broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to conquer Tyre, he is a liar. You told a lie too when you promised to discuss the Nebuchadnezzar issue and failed to do so, at least as far as I know.

In another thread, you criticized Pharoah for mistreating the Jews. You embarrassed yourself since you believe that God's protection of the Jews was conditional upon good behavior. If the Jews had acted right, God would not have allowed Pharoah to enslave them. If Pharoah enslaved them, it was their own fault. Not only that, but what about Jewish babies who would have unfairly suffered many times during Jewish history because of the disobedience of their parents?

What about Jewish history after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead? Was God still protecting the Jews conditional upon good behavior? If so, what kinds of good behavior? For instance, what about the Jewish Old Testament practice of putting people to death for working on the Sabbath Day? After Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, Jews would still have been bound by Old Testament law. So, after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, did God consider it to be good behavior when Jews still killed their own people for working on the Sabbath Day?

Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light. Why isn't it just as possible that it is God who is actually masquerading as an angel of light?

How would you like your serving of crow cooked?

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 12:43 AM

To juergen you said that Benny Hinn was cursing those who oppose him, I misread that part. His curses are weak unless he is a true Apostle (which should not curse anyone) or an occultists. Since he is not a man of God, if his curses are potent then he would have to be a practicing occultist (which is very probable, since occultists likes to brainwash their followers and curse others)

And as for as christians being able to "bless the world out of poverty" and other straits, cannot happen if the world rejects God. The blessings of God does not fall to those who hate Him, true blessing is having your name written in the book of life, salvation which is in Christ. And dont confuse material blessings with those of God. Just because a nation has many goods (like america) does not mean that they are blessed (America is cursed). Jesus made this obvious when He said "What does it profit a man (or nation) if he gains the whole world but yet loses his soul." "It is (almost) impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of God" "Satan showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory (riches) and said 'all these things i will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Not all wordly blessings and suscess comes from God, some indeed comes from Satan which is why many of his followers follow him.

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ms. Darklighter I in no way said that Elisha was tapping into "dark powers." Rather it was dark powers acting on the curse of Elisha. Which is why Jesus is against curseing. Even men of God sin somtime. Who do you believe was behind the temptation of David to have Uriah killed for Bath-Sheba? God or the Devil? Who was behind Abraham sin to sleep with Hagar that resulted in the birth of Ishmael cheif enemy of the Israelites? What spirit was behind Balaam (who was a prophet of God although corrupt) who cursed people for money? No man is immune from evil influences, and all sin. Evil will exploit the sin of man which has been the case from the beginning which is why Paul says:

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES." Ephesians 6

One of the pieces of this armor is the "breastplate of righteousness." Righteousness (God's moral laws) prevents us from being used by these wicked forces. When you sin you bring these forces into action. And since "ALL men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" no one is completly out of reach of these forces...including Elisha.

So no Ms. Darklighter Elisha did not tap into evil forces (for that would be witchcraft and satanism) evil forces exploited his sin...as they do us all. :wave:

First of all I'm not a "Miss," you should know it's a taboo to assume someones gender in an online forum. No big though, I got a laugh out of it.

I'm curious what made you assume female though.

Anyway, I did equate those "evil forces" with Satan (from a scriptural perspective), which apparently we agree on. BUT as has been pointed out, that is not what the scripture says. He specifically called down evil "in the name of the LORD." Thus I understand why you're performing these various mental gymnastics to get around that point. So, to say he was "being used by" rather than "using" these powers is a cop-out.

But your logic has another gaping hole in it: If things are as you say they are, then Elisha would have to have KNOWN where this power was coming from! Thus making him guilty of witchcraft! You can't imbue him with ignorance. He was trained by Elija for pitys sake. Jesus said at Luke 12:48:

Quote:

"...everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him."

Elisha was given great power AND athority. Would he not have been expected to use that power wisely? Or do Spider-Man comic books have a higher moral code than the Bible? With great power comes great responsibility.

Elisha sinned out of anger because he was made fun of and cursed them. Jesus (God) was beaten and ridiculed but yet did not wish for harm against these tormentors. God does not wish harm on noone. God does not support cursing, if he did Jesus would have said curse those who curse you. I doubt Elisha knew everthing about what goes on behind the scenes. Even Job did not know what was going on behind the scenes when Satan was allowed to test him, and Job was a great man of God. ALL MEN SINS, TO SIN IS TO BE A VEHICLE FOR EVIL SCRIPTURE MAKES THIS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR. NO ONE IS OUT OF REACH, EVEN CHRISTAINS, PROPHETS ETC. STOP ACCUSING GOD BECAUSE OF SOMEONE ELSE'S SIN. ONLY HE IS HOLY... NOT ELISHA. :wave:

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ms. Darklighter I in no way said that Elisha was tapping into "dark powers." Rather it was dark powers acting on the curse of Elisha. Which is why Jesus is against curseing. Even men of God sin somtime. Who do you believe was behind the temptation of David to have Uriah killed for Bath-Sheba? God or the Devil? Who was behind Abraham sin to sleep with Hagar that resulted in the birth of Ishmael cheif enemy of the Israelites? What spirit was behind Balaam (who was a prophet of God although corrupt) who cursed people for money? No man is immune from evil influences, and all sin. Evil will exploit the sin of man which has been the case from the beginning which is why Paul says:

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES." Ephesians 6

One of the pieces of this armor is the "breastplate of righteousness." Righteousness (God's moral laws) prevents us from being used by these wicked forces. When you sin you bring these forces into action. And since "ALL men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" no one is completly out of reach of these forces...including Elisha.

So no Ms. Darklighter Elisha did not tap into evil forces (for that would be witchcraft and satanism) evil forces exploited his sin...as they do us all. :wave:

"Who was behind Abraham sin to sleep with hagar that resulted in the birth of Ishmael chief enemy of the Israelites?"

Well, the obvious would be Sarah, Abraham's wife. Sarah thought it perfectly righteous to use her handmaid Hagar as incubator for a son. And wouldn't you know it, ol Abraham had no objections.

Christians have created an enemy where none is presented. In fact, the story says that Ishmael was blessed before Isaac ever came along and that Abraham considered Hagar as a wife, as did Sarah. Abraham had other wives also, but you Christians will not let go of the hatred you have for Muslims in Ishmael. You've carried your racist doctrine through your version of the bible story to the extent of your leader Bush pumped-up to carry out your wishes in pre-emptive war on innocent Iraqi's just because the Right Wing believes a story of imagined cursing..

Your hatred and death-cult will one day kick back in your face, or your ass, imo.

I in no way hate Muslims, but when Ishmael was born the Angel said he will be a wild man (savage) his hand would be against everyman, and everyman hand would be against him. How true this prophecy is through Islam, the descendants of Ishmael have claimed an Holy war on all who do not believe what they believe. And all have claimed a war to stop this Holy Jihad. The war on terror, and the terror war is a powerful proof of this prophecy.

Bush my leader?? Bush is the most evil president this country has yet seen (but woe unto America should Hillary Clinton ever win the White House). Bush is nooo Christain, his hands are full of blood, mainly of those thousands of innocent Iraqis.

I do not hate Muslims or anybody else. And by the way Sarah grew impatient and took matters into her own hands. This impatience was due to a lapse of her faith in God's promise (which probaly happens to us all). What spiritual force do you think was behind this lapse of her faith? It was not God. :wave:

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 01:44 AM

And no Storytime, Abraham had one wife, Hager was Sarah slave girl, not his wife.

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Spiritual evil comes alive through DISOBEDIENCE.

I agree. When God's murders babies, and kills innocent animals, his evil nature comes alive through his disobedience to his own rules.

I invite you to participate in a thread at the GRD Forum that is titled "Justifying Biblegod's Atrocities." The God of the Bible is the most dangerous and destructive being in the world by far. He even empowered a vicious Devil to help him terrorize mankind. He claims that he is merciful, but he endorses unmerciful torment. Since he broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to conquer Tyre, he is a liar. You told a lie too when you promised to discuss the Nebuchadnezzar issue and failed to do so, at least as far as I know.

In another thread, you criticized Pharoah for mistreating the Jews. You embarrassed yourself since you believe that God's protection of the Jews was conditional upon good behavior. If the Jews had acted right, God would not have allowed Pharoah to enslave them. If Pharoah enslaved them, it was their own fault. Not only that, but what about Jewish babies who would have unfairly suffered many times during Jewish history because of the disobedience of their parents?

What about Jewish history after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead? Was God still protecting the Jews conditional upon good behavior? If so, what kinds of good behavior? For instance, what about the Jewish Old Testament practice of putting people to death for working on the Sabbath Day? After Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, Jews would still have been bound by Old Testament law. So, after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, did God consider it to be good behavior when Jews still killed their own people for working on the Sabbath Day?

Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light. Why isn't it just as possible that it is God who is actually masquerading as an angel of light?

How would you like your serving of crow cooked?

Okay Johnny take off those dark shades so you can read my response (maybe then you can see and wont ask me the same thing after I have responded). Go and read my "Why God kills babies thread" to get the answer for your question on why God kills babies (he probaly already has but yet will persist in asking the same question again which is becoming quite common with 'question Johnny') You asked me one time (rather many times) Why God has treated Israel the way He has. I shall answer yet again (and if you ask me this again I shall no more pay you any attention).

In the book of Deuteronomy after Moses gives the Israelites various laws before he dies God told him "Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the strangers of the land, where they go to be among them, ad I will HIDE MY FACE from them and they shall be devoured. And MANY EVILS AND TROUBLES SHALL BEFALL THEM so that they will say in that day 'have not these evils come upon us because our GOD IS NOT AMONG US? And I will surely HIDE MY FACE in that day BECAUSE OF ALL THE EVIL WHICH THEY HAVE DONE, IN THAT THEY HAVE TURNED TO OTHER gods....For I (Moses) know that after my death you will become UTTERLY CORRUPT, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you IN THE LATTER DAYS, because you WILL DO EVIL IN THE SIGHT OF THE LORD, TO PROVOKE HIM TO ANGER THROUGH THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS." Deuteronomy 31

And concerning the Sabbath, by law Jesus and the Apostles were to be stoned for working on the Sabbath day (Jesus healings and picking corn). Jesus says it is lawful to do good (works) on the Sabbath. It was not the working on the Sabath that got you into trouble with God. It was the blatent disregard of God and his law to persue ones own selfish disires. Many who trampled God's Sabbath Law did it out disregard for God and selfish greed. Which is a mark of Rebellioness. "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

And I find it strange that those who cry the loudest against the Holiness of God, are the unholy. For darkness do indeed attack the light, but they will not susceed. Give my regards to the GRD forum. :wave:

JEST2ASK · 01-12-2008, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And no Storytime, Abraham had one wife, Hager was Sarah slave girl, not his wife.

Who was Keturah?

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01-12-2008, 12:43 AM	#65
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	To juergen you said that Benny Hinn was cursing those who oppose him, I misread that part. His curses are weak unless he is a true Apostle (which should not curse anyone) or an occultists. Since he is not a man of God, if his curses are potent then he would have to be a practicing occultist (which is very probable, since occultists likes to brainwash their followers and curse others) And as for as christians being able to "bless the world out of poverty" and other straits, cannot happen if the world rejects God. The blessings of God does not fall to those who hate Him, true blessing is having your name written in the book of life, salvation which is in Christ. And dont confuse material blessings with those of God. Just because a nation has many goods (like america) does not mean that they are blessed (America is cursed). Jesus made this obvious when He said "What does it profit a man (or nation) if he gains the whole world but yet loses his soul." "It is (almost) impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of God" "Satan showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory (riches) and said 'all these things i will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Not all wordly blessings and suscess comes from God, some indeed comes from Satan which is why many of his followers follow him.

01-12-2008, 01:44 AM	#68
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	And no Storytime, Abraham had one wife, Hager was Sarah slave girl, not his wife.

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