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Old 05-02-2009, 05:59 PM   #181
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Total forgery.


It is pretty obvious that at the very time an Official History of the Church is being written with the power and authority of the Roman State behind it, and with the gospel stories of Jesus being executed by Pilate necessitating formal backing - that motive, means, and opportunity all coalesce in Eusebius' work producing the Church History.

One of the ironies for me is seeing people question why Josephus would be expected to write about Jesus - when the Christians already answered that question decisively. Just look at what they did, and how important it was to them.
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Old 05-03-2009, 07:36 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWallack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
One of the general issues here is that knowledge of Against Apion (and the Jewish War) seems to have been more widespread among early Christians than knowledge of the Antiquities.
JW:
Oh but you're confusing "knowledge of" with "direct evidence of usage". The underlying question is are the Fathers in general familiar with Antiquities 18? "Familiar" does not require having or having access to the work. It only requires being aware of anything that would be of interest to a Father, such as a reference to Jesus.

I'm just looking for "likely" here and not "prove". I don't require a clear reference to Josephus to establish likeliness. I have General reasons:

.................................................. ........

If you or TC or A&W want to dispute my general assertion than deal with the above instead of avoiding it.



JW:
Specifically for Justin he is in Rome where Josephus was published and probably most accessible. Justin's education level makes it likely he was familiar with Josephus and if we can take OCD at its word that Justin had the audience of the Emperor than at that level he is probably familiar with the official Roman/Jewish historian of 1st century Israel.

We also have Justin's bookends, "Luke" and Theophilus, who are likely and definitely respectively aware of Josephus as well as Fake Justin who directly refers to Antiquities whose author clearly thought it was something Justin could/should have said.

How Justin could have been aware of Against Apion and not Antiquities is truly amazing:

Flavius Josephus Against Apion BOOK 1

Quote:
1. I SUPPOSE that by my books of the Antiquity of the Jews, most excellent Epaphroditus, (2) have made it evident to those who peruse them, that our Jewish nation is of very great antiquity, and had a distinct subsistence of its own originally; as also, I have therein declared how we came to inhabit this country wherein we now live. Those Antiquities contain the history of five thousand years, and are taken out of our sacred books, but are translated by me into the Greek tongue.
If Justin knows Against Apion than he knows Antiquities. I just can't see Justin or any Father seeing that reference and than not trying to find the book or someone familiar with it. That's how the Fathers spent their time, looking for/manufacturing support for Jesus. It's what they did. That's their Acts like Rip Curtain Torn. They don't dance.
Hi Joe

I agree that if Justin had read Against Apion then he was aware of the existence of Antiquities. I am less convinced than you are, that this implies a genuine knowledge of the contents of Antiquities.

On the question of whether Justin's claims of the antiquity of Moses implies use of Against Apion one should note that there are earlier writers than Josephus making similar claims.

eusebius_pe_book9
Quote:
'But Eupolemus says that the first wise man was Moses, and that he was the first to teach the Jews letters, and from the Jews the Phoenicians received them, and from the Phoenicians the Greeks, and that Moses was the first to give written laws to the Jews.'
See also the material attributed to Artapanus

Andrew Criddle
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Old 05-03-2009, 08:36 AM   #183
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Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For

JW:

CIRCUMSTANTIAL

1) Discovery
1 - No evidence for the TF before Eusebius
1) General silence - expectation that if the
TF existed it would have been used due to its importance
to Christianity.

2) Specific silence - http://vridar.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/josephus/
ca.140’s CE Justin Martyr

General reasons for Justin to be familiar with Josephus:

1) Potential source for areas of interest to Justin:

Josephus is the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel.

Polemical need, arguing with Pagan and Jewish philosophers, to be aware of Josephus

2) Literacy level of Justin:

Philosopher

Writings evidence that he was well read

Audience with Emperor indicates he operated at high level in Roman society

3) Location of Justin:

Rome where Josephus was published and would be easily accessible and well-known.

4) Patristic neighborhood:

Justin's bookends, "Luke" and Theophilus both seem/are familiar with Josephus. Current and previous Fathers are additionally potential sources of information regarding Josephus.

5) Fake Justin assumed that Justin was/would be familiar with Josephus

6) Themes of Josephus attractive to the Fathers even without any mention of Christians.

Josephus chronicles in detail the Jewish willingness to fight Rome which brought on the destruction of the Temple.

Specific reasons for Justin to be familiar with Josephus:

JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN

Quote:
CHAPTER XXXIV -- PLACE OF CHRIST'S BIRTH FORETOLD.

And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah, foretold. He spoke thus: "And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Governor, who shall feed My people." Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judaea.
JW:
What is Justin's likely source here? What better source than the official Roman/Jewish historian of 1st century Israel:

Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII

Quote:
1. NOW Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to he a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance. Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews. Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance,
Isn't Josephus Justin's most likely source here?

And -

JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN

Quote:
CHAPTER LIX -- PLATO'S OBLIGATION TO MOSES.

And that you may learn that it was from our teachers--we mean the account given through the prophets--that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers;
JW:
Wouldn't Josephus be Justin's best potential source, with him in 2nd century Rome, for the assertion that Moses was more ancient than the Greek authors?:

Flavius Josephus Against Apion Book 1

Quote:
5. ...We therefore [who are Jews] must yield to the Grecian writers as to language and eloquence of composition; but then we shall give them no such preference as to the verity of ancient history, and least of all as to that part which concerns the affairs of our own several countries.
Josephus goes on to give a detailed argument that Moses was of greater antiquity than the Greek writers. Who would be a better potential source for Justin? He thinks Christians are the successors to the Jews. Who would give Justin a better/more authoritative history of the Jews through the Christian era and be more accessible to Justin than Josephus?




Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:36 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
You seem quick to eliminate Josephus as a source for Justin's use of epitropos for the head Roman official in Judea, so where do you think Justin got it from, if not from Josephus who uses it frequently enough, for example several times in AJ 20, for Fadus 2, 14, 99, for Cumanus 132, and for Felix 142, 162 (as well as several times in War bk 2).
I am not eliminating Josephus as a source, but I do note that the evidence Justin read him is a little flimsy--I am saying he could have used other authors. If Justin were as literate as Joe says he was and had read Josephus, why wouldn't he call Quirinius and Pilate hegemon? And if he got it from Josephus, why wouldn't that mean that he'd read War (where Pilate is an epitropos), but not Antiquities (where he is not)?

I think the best evidence that Justin read Josephus is that he knows that Quirinius was the "first" administrator of Judea, even though he seems to get the office wrong. He could only get that from Antiquities. But could this perhaps have just been common knowledge in Palestine where Justin grew up? Like knowing George Washington was the first US president.

Joe does note that the evidence he offers is circumstantial, and I'm willing to accept it as such.
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:10 AM   #185
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Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For

JW:

CIRCUMSTANTIAL
1) Discovery
1 - No evidence for the TF before Eusebius
1) General silence - expectation that if the
TF existed it would have been used due to its importance
to Christianity.

2) Specific silence - http://vridar.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/josephus/
ca.140’s CE Justin Martyr

General reasons for Justin to be familiar with Josephus:

1) Potential source for areas of interest to Justin:

Josephus is the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel.

Polemical need, arguing with Pagan and Jewish philosophers, to be aware of Josephus

2) Literacy level of Justin:

Philosopher

Writings evidence that he was well read

Audience with Emperor indicates he operated at high level in Roman society

3) Location of Justin:

Rome where Josephus was published and would be easily accessible and well-known.

4) Patristic neighborhood:

Justin's bookends, "Luke" and Theophilus both seem/are familiar with Josephus. Current and previous Fathers are additionally potential sources of information regarding Josephus.

5) Fake Justin assumed that Justin was/would be familiar with Josephus

6) Themes of Josephus attractive to the Fathers even without any mention of Christians.

Josephus chronicles in detail the Jewish willingness to fight Rome which brought on the destruction of the Temple.

Specific reasons for Justin to be familiar with Josephus:

JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN

Quote:
CHAPTER XXXIV -- PLACE OF CHRIST'S BIRTH FORETOLD.

And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah, foretold. He spoke thus: "And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Governor, who shall feed My people." Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judaea.
JW:
What is Justin's likely source here? What better source than the official Roman/Jewish historian of 1st century Israel:

Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII

Quote:
1. NOW Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to he a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance. Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews. Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance,
Isn't Josephus Justin's most likely source here?

And -

JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN

Quote:
CHAPTER LIX -- PLATO'S OBLIGATION TO MOSES.

And that you may learn that it was from our teachers--we mean the account given through the prophets--that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers;
JW:
Wouldn't Josephus be Justin's best potential source, with him in 2nd century Rome, for the assertion that Moses was more ancient than the Greek authors?:

Flavius Josephus Against Apion Book 1

Quote:
5. ...We therefore [who are Jews] must yield to the Grecian writers as to language and eloquence of composition; but then we shall give them no such preference as to the verity of ancient history, and least of all as to that part which concerns the affairs of our own several countries.
Josephus goes on to give a detailed argument that Moses was of greater antiquity than the Greek writers. Who would be a better potential source for Justin? He thinks Christians are the successors to the Jews. Who would give Justin a better/more authoritative history of the Jews through the Christian era and be more accessible to Justin than Josephus?


ca.170’s CE Theophilus of Antioch - uses Josephus

General reasons for Theophilus to be familiar with Josephus:

1) Potential source for areas of interest to Theophilus:

Josephus is the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel.

Polemical need, arguing with Pagans and Christians, to be aware of Josephus

2) Literacy level of Theophilus:

Identified writings evidence that he was well read

3) Location of Theophilus:

Antioch had long been major city in the East and functioned as quasi capital of Eastern Roman empire at the time. Presumably it would have had libraries and copies of Josephus. Origen probably had Josephus at Caesarea not long after and relatively not far away.

4) Patristic neighborhood:

Theophilus' bookends, Justin and Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons") may be/are familiar with Josephus respectively. Current and previous Fathers are additionally potential sources of information regarding Josephus.

5) Themes of Josephus attractive to the Fathers even without any mention of Christians.

Josephus chronicles in detail the Jewish willingness to fight Rome which brought on the destruction of the Temple.

Of course it goes without saying that we also have Fake Theophilus (surprise).


Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:28 PM   #186
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(I should also add that we know Justin relies on one or more pieces of Pilate apocrypha that are probably no longer extant. Personally I would not be surprised if all of his information about Jesus and the Judean governors came from that apocrypha. Now that apocrypha, in turn, could well have been derived from Josephus--in fact I think it's likely. To me, this makes much more sense out of the evidence than a direct reliance on Josephus by Justin. But there is unfortunately no way to know this.)
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Old 05-06-2009, 06:49 AM   #187
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Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For

JW:
Regarding the general question of the level of interest the early Fathers would have had in Josephus, consider this. We would all agree that at a minimum the Christians added "he was the Christ" to Josephus and the majority of the Unfaithful here have faith that Christians forged the whole thing. The related question is:

Why Josephus?

Why not someone else like Tacitus? Precisely because Josephus was the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel. The reason Christianity had for specifically choosing Josephus to forge is the same reason they would have had for being interested in Josephus from the start.



Joseph

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Old 05-14-2009, 07:35 AM   #188
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Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For

JW:

CIRCUMSTANTIAL
1) Discovery
1 - No evidence for the TF before Eusebius
1) General silence - expectation that if the
TF existed it would have been used due to its importance
to Christianity.

2) Specific silence - http://vridar.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/josephus/
ca.140’s CE Justin Martyr


ca.170’s CE Theophilus of Antioch - uses Josephus

General reasons for Theophilus to be familiar with Josephus:

1) Potential source for areas of interest to Theophilus:

Josephus is the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel.

Polemical need, arguing with Pagans and Christians, to be aware of Josephus

2) Literacy level of Theophilus:

Identified writings evidence that he was well read

3) Location of Theophilus:

Antioch had long been major city in the East and functioned as quasi capital of Eastern Roman empire at the time. Presumably it would have had libraries and copies of Josephus. Origen probably had Josephus at Caesarea not long after and relatively not far away.

4) Patristic neighborhood:

Theophilus' bookends, Justin and Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons") may be/are familiar with Josephus respectively. Current and previous Fathers are additionally potential sources of information regarding Josephus.

5) Themes of Josephus attractive to the Fathers even without any mention of Christians.

Josephus chronicles in detail the Jewish willingness to fight Rome which brought on the destruction of the Temple.

Of course it goes without saying that we also have Fake Theophilus (surprise).

Specific reasons for Theophilus to be familiar with Josephus:

THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS BOOK II

Quote:
CHAP. XI.--THE SIX DAYS' WORK DESCRIBED.

Now, the beginning of the creation is light; since light manifests the things that are created. Wherefore it is said: "And God said, Let light be, and light was; and God saw the light, that it was good," manifestly made good for man. "And God divided the light from the darkness; and God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters: and it was so. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And God called the firmament Heaven: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the water under the heaven be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And the waters were gathered together into their places, and the dry land appeared. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed after his kind and in his likeness, and the fruit-tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, in his likeness: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb yielding seed after his kind, and the fruit-tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind, on the earth: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven, to give light on earth, to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and for years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven, to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. And God said, Let the waters bring forth the creeping things that have life, and fowl flying over the earth in the firmament of heaven: and it was so. And God created great whales, and every living creature that creepeth, which the waters brought forth after their kind and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them saying, Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and all the creeping things of the earth. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. And God created man: in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heaven, and over all cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth. And God said, Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to all the beasts of the earth, and to all the fowls of heaven, and to every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, which has in it the breath of life; every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. And the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the sixth day God finished His works which He made, and rested on the seventh day from all His works which He made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because in it He rested from all His works which God began to create."
JW:
Verses:

Antiquities of the Jews - Book I

Quote:
THE CONSTITUTION OF THE WORLD AND THE DISPOSITION OF THE ELEMENTS.

1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. But when the earth did not come into sight, but was covered with thick darkness, and a wind moved upon its surface, God commanded that there should be light: and when that was made, he considered the whole mass, and separated the light and the darkness; and the name he gave to one was Night, and the other he called Day: and he named the beginning of light, and the time of rest, The Evening and The Morning, and this was indeed the first day. But Moses said it was one day; the cause of which I am able to give even now; but because I have promised to give such reasons for all things in a treatise by itself, I shall put off its exposition till that time. After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts, and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews. On the third day he appointed the dry land to appear, with the sea itself round about it; and on the very same day he made the plants and the seeds to spring out of the earth. On the fourth day he adorned the heaven with the sun, the moon, and the other stars, and appointed them their motions and courses, that the vicissitudes of the seasons might be clearly signified. And on the fifth day he produced the living creatures, both those that swim, and those that fly; the former in the sea, the latter in the air: he also sorted them as to society and mixture, for procreation, and that their kinds might increase and multiply. On the sixth day he created the four-footed beasts, and made them male and female: on the same day he also formed man. Accordingly Moses says, That in just six days the world, and all that is therein, was made. And that the seventh day was a rest, and a release from the labor of such operations; whence it is that we Celebrate a rest from our labors on that day, and call it the Sabbath, which word denotes rest in the Hebrew tongue.
JW:
There are criteria for Literary parallels but I have Faith that the parallels between Theophilus here and Antiquities of the Jews will/should be obvious to all:

1) Theophilus starts his detailed Defense by quoting the Jewish Bible as history for the 1st 7 days. Josephus starts his detailed Defense by quoting the Jewish Bible as history for the 1st 7 days but does add some editorial comments.

THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS BOOK II

Quote:
CHAP. X.--THE WORLD CREATED BY GOD THROUGH THE WORD.

...
And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." First he named the "beginning," and "creation," then he thus introduced God; for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God.
...
CHAP. XII.--THE GLORY OF THE SIX DAYS' WORK.

Of this six days' work no man can give a worthy explanation and description of all its parts, not though he had ten thousand tongues and ten thousand mouths; nay, though he were to live ten thousand years, sojourning in this life, not even so could he utter anything worthy of these things, on account of the exceeding greatness and riches of the wisdom of God which there is in the six days' work above narrated. Many writers indeed have imitated [the narration], and essayed to give an explanation of these things; yet, though they thence derived some suggestions, both concerning the creation of the world and the nature of man, they have emitted no slightest spark of truth. And the utterances of the philosophers, and writers, and poets have an appearance of trustworthiness, on account of the beauty of their diction; but their discourse is proved to be foolish and idle, because the multitude of their nonsensical frivolities is very great; and not a stray morsel of truth is found in them. For even if any truth seems to have been uttered by them, it has a mixture of error. And as a deleterious drug, when mixed with honey or wine, or some other thing, makes the whole [mixture] hurtful and profitless; so also eloquence is in their case found to be labour in vain; yea, rather an injurious thing to those who credit it. Moreover, [they spoke] concerning the seventh day, which all men acknowledge; but the most know not that what among the Hebrews is called the "Sabbath," is translated into Greek the "Seventh" (ebdomas), a name which is adopted by every nation, although they know not the reason of the appellation. And as for what the poet Hesiod says of Erebus being produced from chaos, as well as the earth and love which lords it over his [Hesiod's] gods and men, his dictum is shown to be idle and frigid, and quite foreign to the truth. For it is not meet that God be conquered by pleasure; since even men of temperance abstain from all base pleasure and wicked lust.
JW:
Verses:

Antiquities of the Jews - Book I

Quote:
call it the Sabbath, which word denotes rest in the Hebrew tongue.

2. Moreover, Moses, after the seventh day was over (1) begins to talk philosophically; and concerning the formation of man, says thus: That God took dust from the ground, and formed man, and inserted in him a spirit and a soul.(2) This man was called Adam, which in the Hebrew tongue signifies one that is red, because he was formed out of red earth, compounded together; for of that kind is virgin and true earth. God also presented the living creatures, when he had made them, according to their kinds, both male and female, to Adam, who gave them those names by which they are still called. But when he saw that Adam had no female companion, no society, for there was no such created, and that he wondered at the other animals which were male and female, he laid him asleep, and took away one of his ribs, and out of it formed the woman; whereupon Adam knew her when she was brought to him, and acknowledged that she was made out of himself. Now a woman is called in the Hebrew tongue Issa; but the name of this woman was Eve, which signifies the mother of all living.
2) Both give an editorial summary after the first 7 days.

3) Both identify the Hebrew word "Sabbath".

4) Both invoke Moses early on as the author and give his editorial comments.

5) Specifically, trying to determine which possible source Theophilus used here, note that the above for Theophilus has a Defensive style. Antiquities of the Jews also has a Defensive style while the other possible source for
Theophilus here, Against Apion, has an Offensive style.



Joseph

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Old 05-15-2009, 03:38 PM   #189
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Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For

JW:

CIRCUMSTANTIAL
1) Discovery
1 - No evidence for the TF before Eusebius
1) General silence - expectation that if the
TF existed it would have been used due to its importance
to Christianity.

2) Specific silence - http://vridar.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/josephus/
ca.140’s CE Justin Martyr


ca.170’s CE Theophilus of Antioch - uses Josephus

General reasons for Theophilus to be familiar with Josephus:

1) Potential source for areas of interest to Theophilus:

Josephus is the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel.

Polemical need, arguing with Pagans and Christians, to be aware of Josephus

2) Literacy level of Theophilus:

Identified writings evidence that he was well read

3) Location of Theophilus:

Antioch had long been major city in the East and functioned as quasi capital of Eastern Roman empire at the time. Presumably it would have had libraries and copies of Josephus. Origen probably had Josephus at Caesarea not long after and relatively not far away.

4) Patristic neighborhood:

Theophilus' bookends, Justin and Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons") may be/are familiar with Josephus respectively. Current and previous Fathers are additionally potential sources of information regarding Josephus.

5) Themes of Josephus attractive to the Fathers even without any mention of Christians.

Josephus chronicles in detail the Jewish willingness to fight Rome which brought on the destruction of the Temple.

Of course it goes without saying that we also have Fake Theophilus (surprise).

Specific reasons for Theophilus to be familiar with Josephus:

THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS BOOK II

Quote:
CHAP. XXII.--ANTIQUITY OF THE TEMPLE.

Then concerning the building of the temple in Judaea, which Solomon the king built 566 years after the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, there is among the Tyrians a record how the temple was built; and in their archives writings have been preserved, in which the temple is proved to have existed 143 years 8 months before the Tyrians founded Carthage (and this record was made by Hiram (that is the name of the king of the Tyrians), the son of Abimalus, on account of the hereditary friendship which existed between Hiram and Solomon, and at the same time on account of the surpassing wisdom possessed by Solomon. For they continually engaged with each other in discussing difficult problems. And proof of this exists in their correspondence, which to this day is preserved among the Tyrians, and the writings that passed between them); as Menander the Ephesian, while narrating the history of the Tyrian kingdom, records, speaking thus: "For when Abimalus the king of the Tyrians died, his son Hiram succeeded to the kingdom. He lived 53 years. And Bazorus succeeded him, who lived 43, and reigned 17 years. And after him followed Methuastartus, who lived 54 years, and reigned 12. And after him succeeded his brother Atharymus, who lived 58 years, and reigned 9. He was slain by his brother of the name of Helles, who lived 50 years, and reigned 8 months. He was killed by Juthobalus, priest of Astarte, who lived 40 years, and reigned 12. He was succeeded by his son Bazorus, who lived 45 years, and reigned 7. And to him his son Metten succeeded, who lived 32 years, and reigned 29. Pygmalion, son of Pygmalius succeeded him, who lived 56 years, and reigned 7. And in the 7th year of his reign, his sister, fleeing to Libya, built the city which to this day is called Carthage." The whole period, therefore, from the reign of Hiram to the founding of Carthage, amounts to 155 years and 8 months. And in the 12th year of the reign of Hiram the temple in Jerusalem was built. So that the entire time from the building of the temple to the founding of Carthage was 143 years and 8 months.
JW:
Verses:

Antiquities of the Jews - Book I

Quote:
3. When Solomon had completed all this in twenty years' time, because Hiram king of Tyre had contributed a great deal of gold, and more silver to these buildings, as also cedar wood and pine wood, he also rewarded Hiram with rich presents; corn he sent him also year by year, and wine and oil, which were the principal things that he stood in need of, because he inhabited an island, as we have already said. And besides these, he granted him certain cities of Galilee, twenty in number, that lay not far from Tyre; which, when Hiram went to, and viewed, and did not like the gift, he sent word to Solomon that he did not want such cities as they were; and after that time these cities were called the land of Cabul; which name, if it be interpreted according to the language of the Phoenicians, denotes what does not please. Moreover, the king of Tyre sent sophisms and enigmatical sayings to Solomon, and desired he would solve them, and free them from the ambiguity that was in them. Now so sagacious and understanding was Solomon, that none of these problems were too hard for him; but he conquered them all by his reasonings, and discovered their hidden meaning, and brought it to light. Menander also, one who translated the Tyrian archives out of the dialect of the Phoenicians into the Greek language, makes mention of these two kings, where he says thus: "When Abibalus was dead,. his son Hiram received the kingdom from him, who, when he had lived fifty-three years, reigned thirty-four. He raised a bank in the large place, and dedicated the golden pillar which is in Jupiter's temple. He also went and cut down materials of timber out of the mountain called Libanus, for the roof of temples; and when he had pulled down the ancient temples, he both built the temple of Hercules and that of Astarte; and he first set up the temple of Hercules in the month Peritius; he also made an expedition against the Euchii, or Titii, who did not pay their tribute, and when he had subdued them to himself he returned. Under this king there was Abdemon, a very youth in age, who always conquered the difficult problems which Solomon, king of Jerusalem, commanded him to explain. Dius also makes mention of him, where he says thus: "When Abibalus was dead, his son Hiram reigned. He raised the eastern parts of the city higher, and made the city itself larger. He also joined the temple of Jupiter, which before stood by itself, to the city, by raising a bank in the middle between them; and he adorned it with donations of gold. Moreover, he went up to Mount Libanus, and cut down materials of wood for the building of the temples." He says also, that Solomon, who was then king of Jerusalem, sent riddles to Hiram, and desired to receive the like from him, but that he who could not solve them should pay money to them that did solve them, and that Hiram accepted the conditions; and when he was not able to solve the riddles proposed by Solomon, he paid a great deal of money for his fine; but that he afterward did solve the proposed riddles by means of Abdemon, a man of Tyre; and that Hiram proposed other riddles, which, when Solomon could not solve, he paid back a great deal of money to Hiram." This it is which Dius wrote.
JW:
Note the many matches/similar information (The above does match up even better with Against Apion). Theophilus continues:

Quote:
CHAP. XXIII.--PROPHETS MORE ANCIENT THAN GREEK WRITERS.

So then let what has been said suffice for the testimony of the Phoenicians and Egyptians, and for the account of our chronology given by the writers Manetho the Egyptian, and Menander the Ephesian, and also Josephus, who wrote the Jewish war, which they waged with the Romans.
JW:
Note that "the account of our chronology" given by Josephus would be in Antiquities of the Jews and not Against Apion.


Joseph

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Old 05-16-2009, 06:01 AM   #190
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Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For

JW:

CIRCUMSTANTIAL
1) Discovery
1 - No evidence for the TF before Eusebius
1) General silence - expectation that if the
TF existed it would have been used due to its importance
to Christianity.

2) Specific silence - http://vridar.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/josephus/
ca.140’s CE Justin Martyr


ca.170’s CE Theophilus of Antioch - uses Josephus

General reasons for Theophilus to be familiar with Josephus:

1) Potential source for areas of interest to Theophilus:

Josephus is the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel.

Polemical need, arguing with Pagans and Christians, to be aware of Josephus

2) Literacy level of Theophilus:

Identified writings evidence that he was well read

3) Location of Theophilus:

Antioch had long been major city in the East and functioned as quasi capital of Eastern Roman empire at the time. Presumably it would have had libraries and copies of Josephus. Origen probably had Josephus at Caesarea not long after and relatively not far away.

4) Patristic neighborhood:

Theophilus' bookends, Justin and Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons") may be/are familiar with Josephus respectively. Current and previous Fathers are additionally potential sources of information regarding Josephus.

5) Themes of Josephus attractive to the Fathers even without any mention of Christians.

Josephus chronicles in detail the Jewish willingness to fight Rome which brought on the destruction of the Temple.

Of course it goes without saying that we also have Fake Theophilus (surprise).

References in Against Apion to Antiquities of the Jews:

Flavius Josephus Against Apion BOOK 1

Quote:
1. I SUPPOSE that by my books of the Antiquity of the Jews, most excellent Epaphroditus, (2) have made it evident to those who peruse them, that our Jewish nation is of very great antiquity, and had a distinct subsistence of its own originally; as also, I have therein declared how we came to inhabit this country wherein we now live. Those Antiquities contain the history of five thousand years, and are taken out of our sacred books, but are translated by me into the Greek tongue. However, since I observe a considerable number of people giving ear to the reproaches that are laid against us by those who bear ill-will to us, and will not believe what I have written concerning the antiquity of our nation, while they take it for a plain sign that our nation is of a late date, because they are not so much as vouchsafed a bare mention by the most famous historiographers among the Grecians.
...
10. There have been indeed some bad men, who have attempted to calumniate my history, and took it to be a kind of scholastic performance for the exercise of young men. A strange sort of accusation and calumny this! since every one that undertakes to deliver the history of actions truly ought to know them accurately himself in the first place, as either having been concerned in them himself, or been informed of them by such as knew them. Now both these methods of knowledge I may very properly pretend to in the composition of both my works; for, as I said, I have translated the Antiquities out of our sacred books; which I easily could do, since I was a priest by my birth, and have studied that philosophy which is contained in those writings:
Flavius Josephus Against Apion BOOK 2

Quote:
41. But as for the [distinct] political laws by which we are governed, I have delivered them accurately in my books of Antiquities; and have only mentioned them now, so far as was necessary to my present purpose, without proposing to myself either to blame the laws of other nations, or to make an encomium upon our own; but in order to convict those that have written about us unjustly, and in an impudent affectation of disguising the truth. And now I think I have sufficiently completed what I proposed in writing these books. For whereas our accusers have pretended that our nation are a people of very late original, I have demonstrated that they are exceeding ancient; for I have produced as witnesses thereto many ancient writers, who have made mention of us in their books, while they had said that no such writer had so done.


Joseph

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