Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
|
View Poll Results: What is your position on the originality of the TF? | |||
The TF is a complete forgery | 32 | 55.17% | |
The TF is partially forged | 9 | 15.52% | |
The TF is substantially original | 5 | 8.62% | |
I agree with whatever Spin thinks | 4 | 6.90% | |
I have no TFing idea | 5 | 8.62% | |
Who cares about the TF, I think JW is one funny mo-tfo | 4 | 6.90% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
05-02-2009, 05:59 PM | #181 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,159
|
Total forgery.
It is pretty obvious that at the very time an Official History of the Church is being written with the power and authority of the Roman State behind it, and with the gospel stories of Jesus being executed by Pilate necessitating formal backing - that motive, means, and opportunity all coalesce in Eusebius' work producing the Church History. One of the ironies for me is seeing people question why Josephus would be expected to write about Jesus - when the Christians already answered that question decisively. Just look at what they did, and how important it was to them. |
05-03-2009, 07:36 AM | #182 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
Quote:
I agree that if Justin had read Against Apion then he was aware of the existence of Antiquities. I am less convinced than you are, that this implies a genuine knowledge of the contents of Antiquities. On the question of whether Justin's claims of the antiquity of Moses implies use of Against Apion one should note that there are earlier writers than Josephus making similar claims. eusebius_pe_book9 Quote:
Andrew Criddle |
||||
05-03-2009, 08:36 AM | #183 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For
JW: CIRCUMSTANTIAL 1) Discovery 1 - No evidence for the TF before Eusebius Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
||||
05-04-2009, 04:36 PM | #184 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,443
|
Quote:
I think the best evidence that Justin read Josephus is that he knows that Quirinius was the "first" administrator of Judea, even though he seems to get the office wrong. He could only get that from Antiquities. But could this perhaps have just been common knowledge in Palestine where Justin grew up? Like knowing George Washington was the first US president. Joe does note that the evidence he offers is circumstantial, and I'm willing to accept it as such. |
|
05-05-2009, 07:10 AM | #185 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For
JW: CIRCUMSTANTIAL 1) Discovery Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
||||
05-05-2009, 01:28 PM | #186 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,443
|
(I should also add that we know Justin relies on one or more pieces of Pilate apocrypha that are probably no longer extant. Personally I would not be surprised if all of his information about Jesus and the Judean governors came from that apocrypha. Now that apocrypha, in turn, could well have been derived from Josephus--in fact I think it's likely. To me, this makes much more sense out of the evidence than a direct reliance on Josephus by Justin. But there is unfortunately no way to know this.)
|
05-06-2009, 06:49 AM | #187 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For
JW: Regarding the general question of the level of interest the early Fathers would have had in Josephus, consider this. We would all agree that at a minimum the Christians added "he was the Christ" to Josephus and the majority of the Unfaithful here have faith that Christians forged the whole thing. The related question is: Why Josephus? Why not someone else like Tacitus? Precisely because Josephus was the official Roman/Jewish historian for 1st century Israel. The reason Christianity had for specifically choosing Josephus to forge is the same reason they would have had for being interested in Josephus from the start. Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
05-14-2009, 07:35 AM | #188 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For
JW: CIRCUMSTANTIAL 1) Discovery Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
||||
05-15-2009, 03:38 PM | #189 | |||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For
JW: CIRCUMSTANTIAL 1) Discovery Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
|||
05-16-2009, 06:01 AM | #190 | ||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Wars. Hist. What Is It Good For
JW: CIRCUMSTANTIAL 1) Discovery Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|