Fr8monkey

Your origional post:

We Christians are forgiven for every damned thing we do in our lifetime as long as we are repentent.

Your next post:

Actually the way it works is that -------those who have lived a moral life are saved and that those that have lived a not so moral life are also saved as long as they repent.---

And those who lived an absolutely terrible life and were responsible for the innocent deaths of millions of people (upchuck time here) go straight to hell (or at least a non-existent hell)----


My Crap-o-meter is going into the red!


---Somehow did you miss the part about me mentioning God can do anything, even dissimulate, or He could not be God?

No, I didn't miss it, I just don't believe it. How convienient it must be to argue the positives and gloss over the negitives by saying "God can do anything." Just shows the shallowness of the average xian thinking skills

TheFisherman

I have a question. Ok, several questions.

How much bad can I inflict on others and the world around me and still manage to repent and get to heaven?

What is the threshold for damnation and salvation, and who decides where to draw the line?

The Sunday morning moral dictator -- a (possibly corrupt) human?! The same ones who say "don't drink" - does drinking make me ineligible for salvation?! Who are they to lay down any such boundary?!

I can decide my own morals as I see fit and society, as a whole, will allow, thank you very much. Can't we all just get along?

I neither relish your heaven nor fear your hell - I believe in neither!

If such mandates are necessary for those weak minded enough to need them, then, yes, they may be necessary in society to maintain some form of order. But, it's just waiting for abuse. To mislead those blind followers. But, that's a different rant....

TheFisherman...

Fr8monkey

Well, I guess you can kill thousands of people and repent and get off scott free... no wait ... prior posting says that is 'evil' and you are doomed. Im confused.

I guess become a Catholic priest and diddle alter boys and you are OK in the eyes of the Almighty, for you ARE a man of God.:banghead:

TheFisherman

Is this a case of "Do what I say do, not what I do..."?

Basically, communism was such a society. The very few telling the masses what to think and do...but it ultimately failed.

Isn't organized religion destined to follow the same path and ultimate fate? As people become more "enlightened", their need for religion lessens.

So, go on, drink and be merry! It'll all work out in the end!

Fr8monkey

So does constipation.

With religion, it's, "You can do what you want; but if you don't do it MY way, it's roasting time!" Communism leads you through thought. Religion leads you through fear.

Pouye

Christians make up 80% of the population? Not in my book. Anyone can call themselves a Christian. Few actually follow Christ and pursue a relationship with Him. Even fewer still live their lives for the sake of His Kingdom, rather than their own "kingdom".

However, this has nothing to do with the topic.
As a Christian (I don't know if I'm a fundamentalist... I first heard that term a year ago, and I still haven�t defined it...) I have a glass of wine once in while and I have no problem with others drinking. The Bible says not to get drunk for good reasons, but I decided long ago that being a "drinker" was probably not a good idea � way before I read about �soberness� in the Bible; my decision had little to do with the "shalt nots" about it.

I wasn't surprised to see our pastor have a glass of wine at a restaurant with other church goers (AOG) for a special occasion. The drinking thing is really more of an American issue, since many Americans are legalistic about it. European Christians just giggle over their "bubbly" at American Christians and their obsession with such minor topics.

As far as gambling, I think this is an issue of the heart. Atheists and Christians (and a host of other labels) gamble away millions of dollars a year. Personally, I think it's stupid -- the money makers are obviously the Casino owners, not the people shoving money in the slots. I'm not legalistic about this, either. If I ever go to Vegas I'll probably throw a few bucks away just for the fun of it.

As far as pornography, this is a little different topic. I remember seeing my first "look" when I was a teen. Some Christians are major prudes when it comes to this topic, somehow making sex out to be evil and the naked body shameful. I don't know how they could believe that God created sex and see things this way. I don't know how they could read the Song of Songs and not see the beauty and ecstasy surrounding sex.

Like every other healthy teen, I was naturally curious about the opposite sex, and given the opportunity, I did more than "peek". As the years past, I found myself wanting to know more about sex, and a friend of mine who worked at a second hand store found some old videos which removed any doubt that sex was certainly interesting! The affect on me was not so much guilt, but wondering how to differentiate the "fantasy" world on the screen from the reality of real relationships. It was quickly obvious to me that porn was not a real picture of a loving, sexual relationship, but more like an overt attempt to market sex.

Actually I was repulsed at the way women were treated as objects. I realized very soon that there was an "ugly" side to porn which only appealed to those who longed for pleasure at any cost � even if children were mistreated or women were abused. Though there was no question that the female body was mysteriously and amazingly beautiful, for me it was empty and meaningless coming over the screen -- an impersonal adrenaline rush which left me cold and empty (albeit jazzed!).

After praying about what I had experienced (I figured if God created sex, He should know a thing or two about it), I began to read what the Bible said about sex. I had never heard a preacher even mention the word. What I discovered was sex was more than just two bodies lustily copulating like animals. There was a whole dimension to sex which included not only the emotions and passions of the persons involved, but a deep love and commitment which made the experience not only more pleasurable, but meaningful. It was just as I suspected!

In Dostoyevsky�s �Notes from the Underground�, there is a chilling scene in which the �underground man�, a disturbed egotist, visits a prostitute. He pays his money, she performs, and then the two of them lie there in silence. Suddenly he looks to the side and sees two wide-open eyes staring at him. �The look in those eyes was coldly indifferent and sullen, as though it were utterly detached, and it made me feel terribly depressed.� Then it occurred to him that for two hours he has not said a word to the naked creature beside him and has not even thought it necessary.
�Now, however, I suddenly saw clearly how absurd and hideous like a spider was the idea of vice which, without love, grossly and shamefully begins where true love finds its consummation. We went on looking at each other like that for a long time, but she did not drop her eyes before mine, nor did she change her expression, so that in the end it made me for some reason feel creepy.�

Then an extraordinary conversation takes place:

The underground man asks the prostitute�s name. �Liza.� He asks her about her nationality and even her parents and siblings. He speaks of a funeral he observed that morning. He asks her about her profession, and they discuss love, sex and married life. Gradually the two, who have wordlessly completed the most intimate of physical acts, become human to one another. A strange relationship springs to life. Eventually, the plot plays out in which Liza cuts through the man�s cruel egoism by responding to him with tenderness and selfless love. �Something was not dead within me,� he finally realizes; the pitiable prostitute Liza had coxed life out of him.

I will be so brave to say that we instinctively recognize the lie when sex becomes a mere transaction. There are societies which tolerate prostitution, but none honor the profession. Even teens mock the �easy� girls in school. Pornography is a cheap alternative which bestows pleasure but with a price: The empty longing for a real relationship and no satisfaction... in fact, the thrill is something like how drug doses work (since the drug produced in the body is adrenaline) � you most likely will end up desiring a �better� fix than the one before.

In one sense, I believe people are never more Godlike than in the act of sex. We make ourselves vulnerable. We risk. We give and receive in a simultaneous act. We feel a primordial delight � a communion of �one flesh�. Two independent beings open their inmost selves and experience not a loss, but a gain.

I no longer see the �rules� of the Bible as capricious rules to spoil our sexual adventures but rather as guidelines protecting something of great value that can only be realized in an exclusive, covenant relationship. I�ve been married for 8 years, and I can honestly say that I am still surprised at the levels of intimacy and pleasure which my wife and I are discovering together. We were both virgins when we married, and our relationship is based partly on this awesome trust, and the deep communication which we can share because we �know� no other. I am much happier now than when I was a teen who saw my share of �titty flicks�. For me, the difference was more drastic than trading in a 10 inch black and white TV for a high-definition color bigscreen.

But then kids come along and ruin everything...

Rock

Yahzi

When they want to show us atheists how wrong we are, the country's full of them.

When we want to show them how wrong they are, there aren't any True Christians to be found.

Quote:

I will be so brave to say that we instinctively recognize the lie when sex becomes a mere transaction. There are societies which tolerate prostitution, but none honor the profession.

Your observation that our society does not honor prostituition is correct, but your historical generalization is not. Sex was a sacred act in some early societies, performed by the Temple priestess for donations. And prostitution (as formalized by the Geisha system) in Japan enjoyed significantly different social attitude.

As for mere transactions, you've just tossed counseling and all psychological services into the dumpster. You expect a counselor to be your friend and listen to your intimate details and provide emotional support. Does the fact that you pay him destroy that intimacy? Does the fact that it is his job to care mean that somehow, he doesn't really care?

It is possible for people to provide sex for pay without it being necessarily unwholesome. Not in our society, with our attitudes: but it is not sex that is the problem, nor money.

Starboy

Who made you god? If you can tell people they are not Christian then so can I and I say that you are not a Christian. Look buddy, as far as I know the only entity that can determine if you are a Christian is god and as far as I can tell you will have to wait until you are dead to find out. Until then you have no right to tell anybody anything in regards to their Christianity.

Starboy

lpetrich

Pouye:
Christians make up 80% of the population? Not in my book. Anyone can call themselves a Christian. Few actually follow Christ and pursue a relationship with Him. Even fewer still live their lives for the sake of His Kingdom, rather than their own "kingdom".

Tell that to the Religious Right some time, the Jerry Falwells and the Pat Robertsons of the world.

And that means that many of those that Pouye has celebrated as "Christians" are very likely fake ones. Could Galileo or Newton have been such fakes? Or is a "true Christian" someone that Pouye likes?

As a Christian (I don't know if I'm a fundamentalist... I first heard that term a year ago, and I still haven�t defined it...)

Someone who has never heard of "fundamentalism"??? What planet has Pouye been living on?

The drinking thing is really more of an American issue, since many Americans are legalistic about it.

Whatever "legalism" is supposed to be. Other than when I like it, it's "fundamental moral principles", and when I don't like it, it's "legalism".

(gambling...)

I think that gambling is only worth doing as entertainment; one should not expect to win very much. On average, the house always wins -- and I happen to have a lot of understanding of statistics.

(sex...)

My patience just ran out...

Pouye

"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it."
(Words of Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14)

Nobody made me God. I have no idea who will enter God's Kingdom... only God knows, IMO.




As a Christian, I don't have to tell them:

"The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life." Romans 2:16

Who says? Nice opinion, but you have nothing to base it own but your own experiences. I disagree.

Rock