Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-14-2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Okay I'll bite: how is the scholarship about an historical Jesus better than mythicist scholarship?

Mythicist scholarship shares with traditional Christian scholarship a pathological resistance to examining the New Testament and its central figure in their Jewish context. Mythicism is the last stand of non-Jewish interpretation of the New Testament.

...

This is only true of a few mythicists. It is not true in general.

No Robots · 06-14-2011, 01:41 PM

Here is an acid test: What are the criteria that allow a mythicist to accept the historicity of Hillel, and reject that of Christ?

Juststeve · 06-14-2011, 01:48 PM

Robot:

Hillel is more credible to the secular mind because there we no miracles attributed to him. There seems to be a general resistance to the idea of a man who after his death had fantastic stories told about him.

Steve

bacht · 06-14-2011, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Mythicist scholarship shares with traditional Christian scholarship a pathological resistance to examining the New Testament and its central figure in their Jewish context. Mythicism is the last stand of non-Jewish interpretation of the New Testament.

Really? My impression is that mythicists tend to start from the Hebrew scriptures and the Jewish apocrypha for their analysis. I suppose there's more than one possible approach to the subject, but I can't see how ignoring the Jewish background will get one very far (then again some see 2nd temple Judaism as a mixture of Hebrew, Babylonian, Persian & Hellenistic ideas)

Isn't gnosticism generally considered to be either originally Jewish or heavily influenced by Jewish cosmology and/or kabala? The 2nd C religious ferment that produced catholicism was in same ways a reaction to the gnostics afaik.

Steven Carr · 06-14-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Here is an acid test: What are the criteria that allow a mythicist to accept the historicity of Hillel, and reject that of Christ?

We don't have very early members of the Hillel fan club showing no knowledge of his being on earth, apart from when he was with the Israelites in the desert.

We also don't have very early members of the Hillel fan club claiming he had revealed how to conjure up his body in a ritual meal.

No Robots · 06-14-2011, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Really? My impression is that mythicists tend to start from the Hebrew scriptures and the Jewish apocrypha for their analysis.

Is the New Testament Jewish literature?

Quote:

Isn't gnosticism generally considered to be either originally Jewish or heavily influenced by Jewish cosmology and/or kabala? The 2nd C religious ferment that produced catholicism was in same ways a reaction to the gnostics afaik.

Certainly.

No Robots · 06-14-2011, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

We don't have very early members of the Hillel fan club showing no knowledge of his being on earth, apart from when he was with the Israelites in the desert.

Members of his fan club assert that Hillel lived 120 years.

Quote:

We also don't have very early members of the Hillel fan club claiming he had revealed how to conjure up his body in a ritual meal.

Members of his fan club claim he invented a sandwich.

Toto · 06-14-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

We don't have very early members of the Hillel fan club showing no knowledge of his being on earth, apart from when he was with the Israelites in the desert.

Members of his fan club assert that Hillel lived 120 years.

....

This is obviously three periods of a symbolic 40 years.

From your source

Quote:

No miracles are connected with Hillel's memory. He lived, without the glory of legend, in the memory of posterity as the great teacher who taught and practised the virtues of philanthropy, fear of God, and humility.

(And that sandwich was not made of his flesh and blood.)

Steven Carr · 06-14-2011, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

We don't have very early members of the Hillel fan club showing no knowledge of his being on earth, apart from when he was with the Israelites in the desert.

Members of his fan club assert that Hillel lived 120 years.

Quote:

We also don't have very early members of the Hillel fan club claiming he had revealed how to conjure up his body in a ritual meal.

Members of his fan club claim he invented a sandwich.

So they claim he existed on earth and did things?

They didn't claim his body could be conjured up in a ritual meal - the very sign of a mythical creature.

No Robots · 06-14-2011, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This is obviously three periods of a symbolic 40 years.

Quite so. They are meant to harmonize his life with that of Moses. Likewise with Christ in the desert.

Quote:

(And that sandwich was not made of his flesh and blood.)

Again, the Last Supper is a symbolic enactment of the eating of the Afikomen, the hidden Messiah. See "He that cometh" (pdf) by David Daube.

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06-14-2011, 01:41 PM	#22
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Here is an acid test: What are the criteria that allow a mythicist to accept the historicity of Hillel, and reject that of Christ?

06-14-2011, 01:48 PM	#23
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Robot: Hillel is more credible to the secular mind because there we no miracles attributed to him. There seems to be a general resistance to the idea of a man who after his death had fantastic stories told about him. Steve

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