Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 03-23-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

How about Philostratus. Independently
preserved in Eusbebius against Hierocles:

So ... now you trust Eusebius (when he says what you want to believe). Didn't you just say a few posts ago that Eusebius was a hired forger and was the world's first thoroughly dishonest historian?

Coneybeare's translation of Philostratus' "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana"
uses the word "priest" (with regard to Asclepius) at least nine times in
the first book. In this instance we can verify Eusebius against the source,
since Philostratus has been separately preserved. Of course I do not trust him.

Eusebius is thoroughly dishonest because he is writing a pseudo-history with
a host of authors, many of whom cannot be so independently verified, since
Eusebius is our only source. For example, Justin.

Eusebius, writing at a time in the fourth century when Constantine was backing christianity against the cult of Asclepius, puts these words into the pen of the profile Justin:

"When we say that he (Jesus) made well the lame
and those with paralysis and those who had
suffered poor health from birth and that he raised
people from the dead, we shall be referring to deeds
that are just like and even identical with those said
to have been performed by Asclepius."

Justin, Apology 22.6

Eusebius is retrojecting the conflict of the fourth century into the second century. Who was Jesus? Everyone knew Asclepius. The Roman empire was after all pagan.

Quote:

And I thought we were looking for references in the primary literature to a prophet of Asclepius and/or that showed that Asclepius had prophets. Where are those?

Coneybear tells me the Philostratus writes that Asclepius had priests
in the first century. Here is some further data on Asclepius from two
contemporary sources whom I am sure you will find respectable.

Of particular interest to some readers is the series of items
discussed as parallels between Asclepius and Jesus.

The OLD HEALER was not supported by the Boss.
The Boss supported the NEW HEALER with the army.

Asclepius: The God of Medicine
By Gerald D. Hart

Quote:

Description:

Asclepius, the Greek god of medicine, was one of the most popular deities of the ancient world. Literary evidence indicates that he was a real person whose deeds enabled him to become a hero-god and, eventually, an Olympian god. The influence of the basic medical practices and ethics of the physician worshippers of Asclepius was strong enough to survive not only the decline of the ancient Greek and Roman religions, but also the adoption of Christianity. During the Renaissance, the ancient theories relating to the physical factors causing sickness were rediscovered and it was this that effectively reawakened the progress of medical science. The staff of Asclepius remains the symbol of medical care today.

This book is a wide-ranging survey and discussion of the god, Asclepius, in the ancient world of Greece and Rome, based upon first-hand evidence from numismatic, literary and archaeological sources. It reviews Asclepian temple medicine and offers a clinical explanation for its success. It will be of interest to many of those working within or associated with the world of medicine today, as well as to teachers and students of the history of medicine.

Contents:

Asclepius - from myth to reality;
The divine doctors;
Serpents, superstition and the gods;
Asclepian temples and religious practices; Asclepian temple medicine;
Votives and talismans;
Rome adopts Asclepius;
Medical practice by Greek and Roman physicians;
Asclepius everywhere;
Asclepius and Christianity;
Asclepian heritage;
Asclepius and medical practice today.

Attestations to Asclepius

See specifically item (14) in which Hart mentions Imhotep-Asclepius.
You were looking for this reference earlier? Try this reference.

p.177-178

Most academic giants of antiquity proclaimed their esteem
for Asclepius and the words of these philosophers, historians,
rhetoricians, poets, politicians and physicians are cited in
the "Edelstein Testimonies". (See Article 02)

1) Plato recorded the dying words of Socrates:
"Crito, we owe a cock to Asclepius. Pay it
and do not neglect to do so." (Plato, Phaedro)

2) Sophocles accepted Asclepius into his house
and set up an altar for him. After his death,
the Athenians called Sophacles: "Dexion" [the
one who receives] because of his reception of
Asclepius.

3) The Neo-Platonists believed that Asclepius was
the soul of the world, by which creation was held
together and filled with symmetry and balanced
union.

4) Pausanius (Descriptio Graeciae, 8:28) that Alexander
the Great dedicated his spear and breastplate to
Asclepius at Gortys in Arcadia.

5) 23 CE Tacitus recorded that Tiberius confirmed
the right of asylum to Cos.

6) Aristides (129-89 CE) ...
"the one who is guider and ruler of all things,
the saviour of the universe and the guardian
of immortals" (Oration 62)

"give me as much health as I need for my body
to obey that which my soul wishes" (Oration 38)

"Here the stern cable of salvation for all
is anchored in Ascelpius." (Oration 23)

7) Julian "Asclepius heals our bodies, the Muses
train our souls with the help of Asclepius and
Apollo and Hermes. (Contra Galilaeos).

8) 53 CE Emperor Claudius granted Coans immunity
from taxes and declared their island a place
sanctified only to Asclepius.

9) After earthquake at Epidaurus in 1st half of
2nd century CE, Senator Antoninus rebuilt the
sanctuary and adorned it with magnificent
monuments.

10) Soranus (2nd century) wrote: "Hippocrates,
by birth, was a Coan ... who traced his
ancestry back to Heracles (Hercules) and
Asclepius, the 20th in descent from the
former, the 19th to the latter.

11) Galen (129-99 CE) recorded the contemporary
building of the temple of Zeus Asclepius
at Pergamum.

"the ancestral god Asclepius, whose servant
I declare myself to be, for he saved me
when I was suffering from a deadly condition
of an abscess."

12) Epigrammata Graeca 1027 (2nd-3rd century CE)
exhorted "Wake, Paeon Asclepius, lord of men ..."

13) Asclepius was everywhere in literature and
everyone was familiar with his deeds. In the
second century he stood at the peak of his
power and influence and was known through
the ancient world.

14) He became identified as Imhotep Asclepius in
Egypt, Eshmun Asclepius in Phoenicia, Zeus
Asclepius at Pergamum and Jupiter Aesculapius
in Rome. [47,48] One might have justifiably hailed
him as Aesculapius Optimus Maximus.

15) Many of his tenmples occupied prestigious
locations such as the Acropolis at Athens,
and at the city of Carthage ...

16) p.205 - Asclepian heritage

Aristophanes, Plutus 639-40:
The chorus in the Greek play 'Plutus' sang:

"I shall sing with all my might to Asclepius,
Blest with his offspring, he who brings
great light to mortals."

Footnotes:

[47] Bartlow RM, "The Origins of the caduceus, Aesculapius 1971
The early Egyptian gods, Uzoit, Nikhbet and
Thoth were depicted with a single serpent
entwining a staff. Were Eshmun-Asclepius and
Imhotep-Asclepius a coincidence or a divine circle?
Did early Greek traders take the Egyptian concept
of healing back to Greece or did the Asclepius
cult develop anew in Greece?

[48] Asclepius had numerous other epithets ...

* "Soter' or saviour was popular and was even inscribed
on some of the coins of Pergamum.

* "Philanthropotatos" (the most manloving)

* "Euergetes" (benefactor),

* "Philolaos" (friend of the people)

His religious status was shown in ...

* Zeus-Asclepius
* Dominus
* Deus
* Augustus, and
* Paeon (who was the original physician to the gods)

His medical role is recalled in "Cotyleus" (of the hip joint)

The "Castrorum" was a reference to the army doctors
(these were called "Asclepiads") revering him and
using his services to assist with wounds, illnesses
and injuries.

Alice Watson lists 55 additional Greek epithets.
Perhaps one of these epithets was used to describe
his additional role as the veterinary god.

p.184

Parallels between Asclepius and Jesus

Christ and Asclepius were both prosecuted under
the law of the day and died a mortal death ...

After their deaths, Christ and Asclepius were resurrected.

Christ returned to Earth as part of a heavenly plan
and as a sign to his followers.

Asclepius was resuscitated to continue the medical
care of mankind with the proviso that he would desist
from raising the dead.

Both were gods who lived among mankind:
Christ a divine human and Asclepius a terrestrial divinity.

Both possessed "divine hands":
Asclepius' were his drugs and light touch in healing
(C healed by touch or blessed and consecrated men for service)

Strong family associations:
Jesus with his mother Mary
Asclepius with his daughter Hygieia

Each part of a Holy Trinity:
Jesus - FSAHG
Asclepius - 3rd in descent from Zeus, son of Apollo,
who was in turn Zeus' son.

"the one who is guide and ruler of all things,

Pagan shrines made over to become "christian"

p.201

The church at San Bartolomeo, on the island in the Tiber
at Rome, is an outstanding monument to the continuity of
sanctity betwen Asclepius and Christianity.

p.202

Belief in the healing powers of St. Bartholemew's relics
was so great that, in the 11th century, the church was renamed
after him. The sacred spring of Asclepius became the healing
spring of St. Bartholemew and its original locations the
center of the nave, at the foot of the chancel steps leading
to the altar.

p.208: "Many Asclepian healing springs, as well as those
of other pagan gods, were adopted by Christianity
and renamed after a local saint.

Salus is the daughter of Aesculapius

p.207

Roman Coins: Asclepius and Salus

"Salus, the daughter of Aesculapius, survived the fall
of paganism. She is depicted on an early coin of the
Christian era that was minted by Fausta, the second wife
of Constantine I: this shows on the reverse a "baptised"
version of Salus, portrayed without a serpent but holding
two children. The users of this coins would receive a
cryptic message that the daughter of Aesculapius has
repented and been converted to Christianity.

p. 208:

First HEALING SAINTS: Cosmas and Damian
Twins -physicians martyrys death in 287 CE

The sick continued to pray to Saints Cosmas and Damian
in much the same way as supplicants appealed to
Asclepius and Hygieia. The twins became patron saints
of physicians and pharmacologists in the fourth century
CE until the 16th century.

After the reformation, the staff of Asclepius replaced
the icons of Saints Cosmas and Damian.

I have not yet examined Cosmas and Damian.
How late are they?

The second reference to the historicity of Asclepius is this.
This looks like your kind of book Jeffrey. I imagine you
have this already? What did you think of it?

Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies (or via: amazon.co.uk)
Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig Edelstein, Gary B. Ferngren

Quote:

Book Description

Throughout nearly all of antiquity, the legendary Greek physician,
Asclepius, son of Apollo and Coronis, was not only the primary
representative of divine healing, but also so influential in the
religious life of later centuries that, as Emma J. Edelstein and
Ludwig Edelstein point out, "in the final stages of paganism,
of all genuinely Greek gods, [he] was judged the foremost
antagonist of Christ."

Providing an overview of all facets of the Asclepius phenomenon,
this book, first published in two volumes in 1945, comprises
a unique collection of the literary references and inscriptions
in ancient texts -- given in both the original and translation
-- to the deity, his life, his deeds, his cult, and his temples,
as well as an extended analysis of them.

As a final comment to this post I would just like to say one thing. If there were just one hundredth of the authentic archaeological and literary evidence to "Jesus and/or christianity" that there are to the ubiquitous Asclepius in the empire, before the rise of Constantine, I would not be here defending the Eusebian fiction postulate.

The pagans have the evidence hands down for the prenicene. But what is their story? And are you interested in it? Or are you interested ONLY in "Eusebian christianity"? Personally I am interested in ancient history, and I am trying to make sense of the issue that the historicity of your man Jesus H is exceedingly poor.

This is not about faith but history.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

mountainman · 03-23-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Even if it's a "devils advocate" position, it serves the quest for knowledge, as long as it's not so implausible as to simply waste time and effort.

It's a stupid postulate.

So is the HJ.

Hence the problem everyone has been experiencing with "christianity" and its intolerant authoritarianism since Nicaea. I am all for lateral thinking. If the HJ is not going to work (it is after all unexamined because lack of evidence) then try something else to make sense of the picture of evidence.

Best wishes

Pete Brown

mountainman · 03-23-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Watch out for the argument from common sense. It is often a way of importing your own prejudices without examining them.

There is only one argument in the field of ancient history and that is the argument by evidence. Common sense must stand in second place to the evidence.

Quote:

Take language. If the Christian narrative is historical, why are there no original Christian documents written in Aramaic? Why is there such a desparate attempt to show that there is some Aramaic basis to the gospel languages?

Because everyone has said to themselves "there was an HJ" and therefore Eusebius must be reliable, and that therefore, there must have been some writings in Aramaic before the greek precedent. We should be able to be objective enough to ask ourselves "what if there was not an HJ"? What if all there was in antiquity was the Healer Asclepius, and this traditional god was shafted by Constantine's power and literature, and the succession of the fourth century power brokerage in favour of the emperor-cult.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

spamandham · 03-23-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

It is a waste of time and effort for that exact reason. It's entirely implausible, as it defies common sense.

It seems less likely to me than alternative explanations, but I don't see it as so wildly unlikely as to be unworthy of any consideration.

Mountainman is right that the body of hard archaeological evidence of pre-nicean Christianity we would expect to find should be relatively large if Christianity developed in the 1st and 2nd centuries and was wide spread by the latter 2nd century.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-23-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

So ... now you trust Eusebius (when he says what you want to believe). Didn't you just say a few posts ago that Eusebius was a hired forger and was the world's first thoroughly dishonest historian?

Coneybeare's translation of Philostratus' "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana"
uses the word "priest" (with regard to Asclepius) at least nine times in
the first book. In this instance we can verify Eusebius against the source,
since Philostratus has been separately preserved. him.

So go ahead and verify it. What are the specific places in Coneybeare's translation of "The Life" where he uses the word "priest" with regard to Asclepius? And what is the Greek word that Coneybeare translates as "priest" in those instances?

And while you are doing that, please also do what you've avoided doing, despite being asked, and tell me what the Greek word is that stands behind the appearance of the word "priest" in the translation of the VC that you adduced in post 5224342 as showing that Asclepius had priests.

Quote:

Eusebius is thoroughly dishonest because he is writing a pseudo-history with
a host of authors, many of whom cannot be so independently verified, since
Eusebius is our only source. For example, Justin.

Eusebius is our only source for the works of Justin Martyr??:huh::huh:

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-23-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Watch out for the argument from common sense. It is often a way of importing your own prejudices without examining them.

There is only one argument in the field of ancient history and that is the argument by evidence.

So please produce the evidence I asked you to produce that shows your historical claims (1) about Asclepius having priests and especially (2) the public execution of a person during the destruction of the Asclepium at Aegae to be true.

Please provide evidence for your claim that in the ancient world people remembered the beginning of books better than anything else within them.

Please provide evidence that when Cyril wrote his reply to Against the Galileans, there were no copies of Julian's work extant.

Please provide primary and hard evidence, not suppositions, for your claim that when Arius proclaimed that "there was a time when the Logos Son was not", he was asserting -- and was known by his opponents and the later semi Arians to have asserted - that Christianity didn't exist before the forth century.

Jeffrey

Toto · 03-23-2008, 04:46 PM

Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol I (or via: amazon.co.uk), Vol II (or via: amazon.co.uk), Conybeare translation

Philostratus on ECW

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-23-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol I (or via: amazon.co.uk), Vol II (or via: amazon.co.uk), Conybeare translation

Philostratus on ECW

Thanks for this (but truth to tell, I already knew that this was online).

But I'm not interested in knowing where Coneybeare''s translation can be found. I'm interested in Pete telling me (1) exactly where it is that Coneybeare' does what Pete claims Coneybeare does -- i.e., uses the word "priest" with regard to (in association with?) Asclepius and (2) what Greek word Coneybeare is translating when he uses the word "priest".

I'm hoping, too, that Pete wont do a Kuchinsky and tell me to find these instances or demand that I tell him what the Greek word is -- though if he did so, we'd have another example of his avoiding questions put to him and of his tactic to shift the burden of proof when he can't produce the evidence he's made claims about.

So, Pete: What are the specific places in Coneybeare's translation of "The Life" where he uses the word "priest" with regard to Asclepius? And what is the Greek word that Coneybeare translates as "priest" in those instances?

Is it the same as the one that your translation of the VC uses?

Jeffrey

Amaleq13 · 03-23-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

...the body of hard archaeological evidence of pre-nicean Christianity we would expect to find should be relatively large if Christianity developed in the 1st and 2nd centuries and was wide spread by the latter 2nd century.

Even if it was an illegal and/or persecuted sect?

That seems to me to lower such expectations considerably.

Toto · 03-23-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

So ... now you trust Eusebius (when he says what you want to believe). Didn't you just say a few posts ago that Eusebius was a hired forger and was the world's first thoroughly dishonest historian?

Coneybeare's translation of Philostratus' "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana"
uses the word "priest" (with regard to Asclepius) at least nine times in
the first book. In this instance we can verify Eusebius against the source,
since Philostratus has been separately preserved. Of course I do not trust him.

...

The Life of Apollonius is online here. I f I search for "priest" I find instances such as

6.6

Quote:

After then having thus purged his interior, he took to walking without shoes by way of adornment and clad himself in linen raiment, declining to wear any animal product; and he let his hair grow long and lived in the Temple. And the people round about the Temple were struck with admiration for him, and the god Asclepius one day said to the priest that he was delighted to have Apollonius as witness of his cures of the sick;

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03-23-2008, 04:46 PM	#157
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol I (or via: amazon.co.uk), Vol II (or via: amazon.co.uk), Conybeare translation Philostratus on ECW

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