Solo

This doesn't work Vork, as I have pointed out to you. If Jesus was laid in a kokh, i.e. a hillside cave tomb he would not have been lowered into it. The parallel you draw would not be probably meaningful to the original readers.

I think though the lowering of the paralytic is a paradoxical reversal of positions of the salvific agent and the healed subject. One would expect the living spirit descend to the patient from above, not the other way round.

Best,
Jiri

Solo

Correction on Luke's handling of the story: 5:19 does mention the crowd and the lowering of the man to Jesus. Luke however sees the man going "through the tiles of the roof", i.e. the roof is not partially dismantled.

Best,
Jiri

sotto voce

The word that Luke used is ambiguous. It could refer either to 'tiling', the simpler untiled roof construction of the majority of people, or to the tiled roofs used by the better off. If this was a house that Jesus had built for himself, there could have been actual baked tiles, Jesus having the tekton's expertise (and perhaps a trade discount!). Whichever it was, the roof was almost as easily replaced as removed.

outhouse

this event is fictional. it never happened.



archeology of first century shows tiled roofs in this location? I highly doubt it.


then your attributing way to much historicity to a event of tiles.


he would have never had a house of his own there, he was below a poverty striken peasant that would have been a renter at best! possibly living under the main house in the basement with his poverty striken fishermen buddies. Most house there if im not mistaken were one window oil candle lit rooms, with roofs of what ever they could find to cover the sun.

these were crewd fieldstone houses with mud plaster


jesus lived nomadic, and never would have had a tile roofed house

stephan huller

The question shouldnt be whether its fiction but what it means. My guess is that we no longer have the original narrative judging by Clement's citatiim. Hence we will likely never know the answer. The Dialoges of Adamantius read "I am the son of man" instead of what is now written

sotto voce

There are two meanings. One is that faith must be strong enough— enough to dismantle a roof, if needs be. The other is that faith was sufficient to heal; by extension, simple faith is sufficient to obtain forgiveness. Sacrificial offerings, priests, fastings, flagellations in monasteries, all of these are to no avail.

stephan huller

But was that wishy washy explanation Mark's? I doubt it

sotto voce

Wishy washy?

'Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?"

He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"' Mk 4:38-40 NIV

But Mark is all about the 'marked' uniqueness of Jesus, and the belief of Jesus that faith is both essential and all-sufficient.

'He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed at their lack of faith.' Mk 6:5-6 NIV

'Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.' Mk 16:14 NIV

'"But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."

"'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"' Mk 9:22-24 NIV ed.

Not that Luke was any different in this respect.

JonA

Can't a story just be a story?

Toto

No way! It must be analyzed for at least 3 deeper layers of meaning.