Vorkosigan

....looks like you're well on the way there yourself.

Vorkosigan

Amaleq13

The eucharist tradition Paul introduces, arguably central to his theology, is entirely antithetical to Jewish beliefs but it is entirely consistent with the Mysteries. Declaring that members had access to the traditional divine promise reserved exclusively for Jews without having to conform to any of the traditional requirements was also probably not received well by actual Jews.

Again, you are creating an apparent false dichotomy by entirely ignoring the clearly relevant group of Hellenistic Jews. The ancient pedigree of Judaism would be invaluable to any new belief system.

How likely is it that Hellenistic Jews would be familiar with the Hebrew Bible?

I'm afraid I will rely upon the opinion of Talmudic scholar, Hyam Maccoby, over yours when he finds little evidence in Paul's letters that he was a "former Rabbi". In fact, he finds much to argue against any formal Pharisaic training and even questions whether Paul was actually Jewish. The best he can suggest for Paul is a background of parents who were "God fearers" but a hometown of Taursus strongly suggests more familiarity with the Mysteries than Judaism.

I have read quite a bit on the subject and have not found the clarity you claim. Nothing you have provided suggests such clarity exists outside your own convictions.

Amaleq13: What do you mean by "mode of interpretation"?

I'm not interested in chasing you around in circles. Please answer the question with specific examples of what you consider to be interpretations consistent with rabbinical views. If they are examples Maccoby considers, I will be happy to provide his explanation of why they are actually the opposite of what is found in Pharisaic interpretations.

I haven't stated a hypothesis. I have only questioned your claims. A mid 2nd century date for the Gospel of the Ebionites and, apparently, the community it reflects is clearly too late for your assertion that they represent 1st century beliefs.

On what basis do you equate the "followers of Christ" mentioned by Tacitus with the 2nd century Ebionites?

If the origin of the sect was Judea, why didn't Paul persecute anyone there? Why did he limit his efforts to those outside Judea?

I would expect any religious group that asserted beliefs considered blasphemous by Judaism to be condemned by Jewish leaders if that same group also claimed association with Judaism.

Making a Mystery-like ceremony of symbolic flesh/blood consumption central to the faith and declaring that non-Jews were considered "God's chosen" without following any of the traditional requirements would have been sufficient to warrant condemnation.

GakuseiDon

Unfortunately, I'm a Christian, which lowers my credibility when reviewing works like that. An atheist actually posted my review of the book (which was in response to his original review), and even had one of the authors of the Jesus Mysteries book reply: http://80.177.27.27/freethought/buk-jesusmysteries2.htm.

The original reviewer was the one who strongly recommended me buying the book, but when I tried to get him into looking into the book's claims for himeslf, he lost interest quickly!

Amaleq13

Q would seem to support the notion of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher but its cousin, GThomas, presents an anti-apocalyptic Jesus from an apparently shared source of sayings.

Given that Mack has shown that the entire central core of sayings in Q can be see as quite similar to Cynic teachings of the time, I question how "extremely groundbreaking" we can reliably consider the preaching Jesus to have been.

GakuseiDon

According to this, Cerinthus was "the leader of a first-century an offshot of the Ebionite sect" who "denied the supernatural birth of Jesus, making him the son of Joseph and Mary, and distinguishing him from Christ, who descended upon him at baptism and left him again at his crucifixion." Irenaeus writes about him around 170.

Toto

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia the first mention of Cerinthus was by Irenaeus around 170. Irenaeus reported that he was a contemporary of St. John who wrote the gospel according to John.

This source seems a bit untrustworthy.

Edited to add: the 1911 Enc Birt gives a date of c. 200

CX

I'd be curious to know what groundbreaking ethics and profound religious insights you think Jesus had. As early as the 2nd century the pagan philosopher Celsus raised the objection that Jesus' philosophy was inferior to that of the greeks and not at all original.

CX

Additionally, given the obvious controversy with which Paul's message and authority were apparently received, it seems reasonable that he intentionally distanced himself and his theology from an Historical Jesus lest the accusation that he was not a real apostle gain a foothold amongst his congregations.

Magdlyn

Shocking how?

You are playing a fun teacher/student game with me! hehe!

I am new to this forum and wonder why The Jesus Mysteries is seen as suspect, even shocking.

I do not mean to suggest that Freke/Gandy have the final word on every aspect of the mystery religion parallel. They posit it clearly and succintly. If they do not include the exact manner of all the dying and rising gods (and I have read there were 600 altogether in the Med region) why does that matter?

The manner of death (hung on tree, gored by boar, whirlwind fire chariot after bull slaying, etc) of each individual god is not important. IMO. The mytheme (death and resurrection, spring/winter solstice association, often a virgin birth, and as a prev poster stated, a sacred meal of bread and wine, etc), is similar, a parallel.

"Under the names of Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, and Attis, the peoples of Egypt and Western Asia represented the yearly decay and revival of life ... which they personified as a god who annually died and rose again from the dead. In name and detail the rites varied from place to place: in substance they were the same" --Frazer


Hor is a resurrection of his own father, in a sense. They myth and story is a bit more complex and kind of cooler than the Xtian one, IMO, again.

me:
3 days in the ground suggests Persephone's 3 months.

you:
Why?

You're not serious? John Barleycorn he is. The Jonah parallel seems like an afterthought.

And your final question, why is Judas parallel to Set? Both are close associates of the godman, in one case blood brother, in the 2nd case, member of his band of 12, his chosen ones. His Brother, in a spiritual sense. Jesus did call those who worship god like him, his brothers, even surpassing his own flesh and blood brothers.

Please be serious. I find your questions simplistic and disingenuous.

ETA, I looked at your review. I have also seen the Tektonics site. Oh well...I would say something about not seeing the forest for the trees, but I guess we have had enough tree talk!

Toto

Hi Magdlyn - if no one has already, I want to welcome you to the boards. Most of us do not find The Jesus Mysteries a very shocking book, but we do have Christians on the site like Gakusei Don who do.

The parallels between the Christ Myth and other dying and rising savior gods is a murky area. You might want to read Richard Carrier's comment on Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors.

But I thought that was a very minor point of The Jesus Mysteries.