mountainman

Dear LogicandReason,

Additionally, there is also the physical issue of the reliability of the chronology estimate of the fragment based on very skilled masters in ancient greek handwriting analysis. Its not as though P52 has been carbon dated, and there is nothing to prevent it being from a later century, perhaps as late as when the new testament was officially televised from downtown Constantinople.

P52 does not have a date on it. The date has been grokked by specialists who have managed to convince themselves the script betrays the certain nuances of greek handwriting that are distinctive in the epoch of Hadrian. This represents a conjecture which is so attractive to apologists, that P52 and its ilk have been paraded for decades as "proof" of the NT in the early centuries. We all know that the NT "Historians" do not have very many archaeological citations apart from all these papyri. All I can say is .... Buyer beware.

And secondily to advise people who are skeptical of the "christian sponsored paleographic dating" to have a look at the demographic history of Oxyrynchus, which was a ghost town until the mid-fourth century and then exploded into massive population figures, with a city of its own formed outside of the walls, such were the numbers of people living there. The great bulk of all the NT papyri have been sourced from the public rubbish dump at this ghost town, before it became a sprawling city.

Can you imagine such a story? How lucky we are to have found the rubbish from this Holy Ghost town of the first/second century! Clearly, this early rubbish must have been piled over by the rubbish following the city's population explosion of the mid-fourth century. I wonder how they sorted out the rubbish from the early period (ghost town) and the rubbish from the later period (overpopulated city). Amazing stuff.

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear aa5874, arnaldo and others,

Radiocarbon dates from the catacombs of St. Callixtus. The good news is that some C14 dating reports use extrapolations: the further we go back into the cyrpt the older it gets. The dates are late at the front of the crypt, and earlier the further back into the crypt the samples were taken. They have found no really early dates, but they have a little further distance to go back into the crypt. By extrapolation, they think they may yet find something reasonably early. Perhaps another grant?

Also, there is the issue of people like Damasius, or should I say Pontifex Maximus Bishop Damasius .... whose troops battled for days in the streets of Rome to secure his position as the bishop of Rome. Nothing like a bishop who had his own private army. Damasius promoted the christian "Peter in Rome" campaign. He was responsibe for the creation of the christian relic tourist industry in Rome, and might be looked at as a late fourth century Walt Disney of the Catacombs. Before he kicked the bucket Damasius took a young Jerome under his corrupt political christian state wing.


And one must be aware that the labours of Giovanni Battista De Rossi did not fail to include forged inscriptions. It was, and it still is (ask any Vatican Tour Guide) a racket. The only evidence which has arisen from the catacombs is the manifest evidence of known forgeries. Business as usual.

Best wishes,



Pete

LogicandReason

Thanks Pete...where can I find out more about Oxyrynchus? BTW, there is a picture of Peter and Paul above with an inscription....we must be wrong as that just proves everything the theist have been saying.

LogicandReason

2000 years from now, when an archeologist discovers remnants of an image of Beavis and Butthead, what will he/she posit about their historicity? It will be especially confusing if he/she finds the cover of Rolling Stone magazine (historically proven/Dec 26, 1996) portraying Beavis and Butthead on the lap of Pamela Anderson (who will most likely be traced back in history by her TV, film and sex romps with Tommy Lee). He/she will determine that there is more historical evidence for Pamela Anderson then a supposed carpenter turned deity from 1st century Judea. Beavis and Butthead are on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine 5 more times in history. Wow...no doubt they must have been real.

LogicandReason

Let's see if we can spot any mythological statements above.

LogicandReason

Professor G.A. Wells, in his book Did Jesus exist, points out that Herodotus (historicity not disputed) wrote that Attis was the son of the king of Lydia who was killed on a hunting party. Does this make Attis historical based on the known historian Herodotus? Wells also reports that Clement of Alexandria did not deny the existence of the pagan savior gods Attis or Osiris, Clement stated that they were 'mere men.' (pg 177) Justin Martyr admits Christian beliefs are similar to older pagan beliefs in his 1st Apology.

This proves that many people in ancient times were superstitious and ignorant. I'm not sure the excuse today....inculcation?

Opinion

We can all become children of God. Jesus is the path I believe since he is the son of God. You don't have to believe that or that we can also become children of God and not just his creation. You don't have to believe in any of that. But he did exist mentioned by Josephus and the NT.

The bible also says we were created from God. We sound like a myth too but we exist.

“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." (2 Peter 1:16)

mountainman

"The evangelists were fiction-writers - not observers
or eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus"

(Porphyry, translated by Hoffmann)

Jeffrey Gibson

Is that really what tou_j Eu0aggelista_j e0feure/taj, ou0x i3storaj tw~n w~eri\ to_n I0hsou~n gegenh~sqai wracewn means?

Jeffrey

aa5874

So, are you claiming that the disciples did witness Jesus as he floated through the clouds?

Acts 1.9 I think Acts 1.9 is a cunningly devised fable.