Jim Larmore

I guess the main argument here is really if you accept as authentic the Bible as it is written. I've read a lot of scripts on this dissussion forum and most of the ones who comment on the Bible say its just another book or mythological in nature. I have to say that these comments are based on ignorance to the nth degree.
The Bible is a phenomenal compilation of 66 books written by 40 authors over a period of 1500 years. There were three different languages used on as many continents, most of the authors never met one another yet the entire Bible speaks as if it has one author, Indeed that one author is the Holy Spirit 2Tim 3:16 and 2Pet1:21. Study it and find out before you dicount it. This is where most of the posters here display their ignorance.
There was a post earlier on the jews using the Torah to dissprove the existence of Jesus yet the Torah has over 125 major prophecies for the messiah and only Jesus fits the prophecies for the messiah. By the way the Bible has the Torah in it , its called the Old Testament!!! These prophecies tell of the place he was to be born the time of his apprearing, even that he would be sold for 30 pieces of silver. Dr. Peter Stoner of Pasadena College did a mathematical probability study on just 8 of these prophecies and found that the probability was 1 in 10 the 11th power. Only Jesus could be the messiah.
Historically, the Bible has given us the rise and fall of the 4 major world powers, in Daniel 2,7,8 it tells of Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece to Rome, the powers spoken of were represented by Symbolical animals but its unmistakeable who they are. The general named Cyrus was named by the Bible as the one to conquer Babylon over 200 years before it was to happen, historically this is documented to be true. In Deut. 7;1 it speaks of th Hittite nation , this was stated as a myth for years by archeologists and scientist alike until in recent discoveries i.e. the cuneiform and archeological digs they have actually discovered proof of the existence of the Hittites , Ninevah and Sodom.
Lastly, when a reasonable mind well educated on nature and biology really looks at the vast complexity of nature it becomes obvious that a great intelligence started all this. Its totally absurd to give inanimate material credit for the origins of life. Life is so miraculous in every aspect, i.e. from DNA which exists only inside the cell to the irreducibly complex proteins which could not have just happened . The math probabilites alone scream of an intelligent creator. The fingerprints of God are visible for all to see yet many choose to remain blind. One day in the not too distant future this Jesus many of you claim to not exist will come back to end this sin problem the earth is infected with. I hope many of you wake up before its too late.

Steven Carr

And more ignorant ranting......

But you can try to prove this is not ignorant ranting, by showing that I am wrong.

Simply join the Errancy Mailing list, and you will be able to show atheists of all stripes how correct you are, and how ignorant we atheists are!

Just send an email to
ii_errancy-subscribe@topica.com

I look forward to your postings.

Gregg

Ahem. Eternal life and salvation from the flames of hell is not "bribery?" Or "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things (food, clothing, shelter) will be yours as well." Or "Ask, and it will be given to you...good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over..." Like heck if Jesus didn't promise rewards for following his teachings.You're assuming that (1) the gospels are biographies written by eyewitnesses, (2) the early Christians believed that Jesus was physically resurrected, and (3) the disciples/apostles were all martyred for preaching Jesus' resurrection. #1 has been discounted by most serious Bible scholars. #2 is open to question--it's likely the early Christians believed in an unseen, spiritual Christ (whose resurrection took place in the heavens, not on earth), and that the gospel stories are simply allegories about this spiritual intermediary between God and man. #3 there is absolutely no evidence for.Again, you are assuming the Gospels are historical biographies written by eyewitnesses. Are you aware that there is absolutely no documentation, outside the gospels, of Jesus performing miracles? Are you aware that Roman emperors were said to have performed large-scale miracles in front of both "friends and enemies" ? Do you believe THOSE stories as well?Oh gawd, they have a "student edition" of this piece of unmitigated tripe? Mon chi, just about everybody on this forum has heard of or read "The Case for Christ" and knows that Strobel's arguments are completely INvalid. Try again.

Amlodhi

Actually, it's not. The Jewish bible (or tanakh), aka the OT, is comprised of the torah, the prophets (Nevi'im) and the writings (Kethuvim). Hence, tanakh. The torah consists of the first five books of the OT, aka the pentateuch.

Might be best to withhold comment about other posters on this board displaying their ignorance. That sort of thing has a tendency to fly back into your face.

Also:

In all of your extensive studies, did you ever come across the concept of infinite regression?

Namaste'

Amlodhi

Secular Pinoy

Darn, but I've already bought them through Amazon and B&N. I'll hafta wait for Randi to visit here (perhaps to further debunk our infamous psychic surgeons) to get my copies signed.

Doctor X

Oh my. . . .

Jim:

Again, I shall try to prove an optimist and assume you are interested in discussion.

Not really. It depends on what you mean by "authentic." First, do the texts [Witnesses.--Ed.] we have represent the texts of the OT/NT? That, in and of itself, is a discipline that drives graduate students to appear like the stars of Reefer Madness.

Second, by "authentic" do you mean "true" as in "what really happened? It is not a matter of assumption--Mt and Lk connect the birth of Junior to two separate historical events roughly ten years appart . . . at best, one of them is wrong. JFK enthusiasts may disagree on whether or not the CIA, Star Fleet Command, or a bunch of idiots looking for curry are responsible for the assassination, but, for some reason, they do agree on the date.

Methinks you should read with a bit more responsibility. Your attempt to Poison the Well does not prove your claim:

Ipse dixit and, unfortunately for your discussion, wrong. Take the Pentateuch--see Amlodi's kind correction of your terms above--you have at least two different stories--with different gods--stitched together. Repetitions and contradictions are preserved. This seems somewhat different than "one voice." Better yet, note well how the Chronicler rewrites the Deuteronomistic Historian [Sam-Kings--Ed.]. Hardly "one voice."

If you are actually interested in the topic, I would strongly recommend you avail yourself of Freidman's Who Wrote the Bible?. You would least understand the current basic scholarship. Otherwise, I am afraid you choose to remain in ignorance.


Actually no. Remember, also, that the writers of the stories of Junior fit the story to meet some prophecies--one of the reasons Mt and Lk's opening journeys are incompatable--they "fit the prophecies" in different ways!

Actually, no. Incidentally, did Judas hang himself or, my preference, explode? Mt and Lk [In Acts which is written by the Lk author.--Ed.] cannot seem to agree. I mean, it is a small point . . . I can see how someone can mistaken abdominal eviceration with self-hanging. Regarding the "money"--such coincidence! The book I am reading on child sacrifice--bring back that "Ol' Time Religion!!"--discusses your prophecy thusly:

So, someone wanders about texts looking for a prophecy and fulfills it. Granted "what" they mean for the Synoptic authors appears rather distinct from the context of the original texts. Levenson--the author of the reference--notes that the idea of "selling" or "betraying" the "beloved son"--poor first-born slob whom YHWH requires must be sacrificed--is a part of the myth.

A most unfortunate name for a person from California. Unfortunately, if Junior did not actually meet ANY of the prophecies--given they way the "prophecies" are not "prophecies" or are misinterpreted and otherwise altered by the Synoptic authors--this gives a rather more understandable probability.

Furthermore, Junior, himself, failed to fulfill his own prophecy. Last I looked, the world still exists . . . though I could be wrong . . . sometimes the caffeine affects my perception. . . .

Except that Junior, as portrayed by the Synoptics, did not meet the criteria of the messiah. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln. . . ."


and other epic cylces discuss more. Does this make them any more valid? Of course not.

Incidentally, the "history" of the OT has been demonstrated to be "inaccurate" as in "this is what happened" over the last century. Again, I would recommend you avail yourself of the scholarship--the texts on archeology in the Recommended Reading are quite good. Also note that if a text is written after a historical event and mentions the historical event, this does not make it any more "true" than an Oliver Stone movie or a Shakespeare history.

Name that fallacy!!

Incidentally, whether or not the creationism you expose is "true" it does not alter the texts, so this is, at best, a non sequitur. It is also a facile rendering of science.

Ipse dixit and, unfortunately, the universe does not seem to care what we think is or is not "absurd." Of course, if you wish to assume a "designer" I can direct you to a wonderful discussion on another page which demonstrates that he is either non-existent, evil, incompetent, and/or irrelevant.

To stick to the point of this forum, whatever theological bent you have, it does not alter the texts--if "intelligent design"--the new creationism--was correct, it would not change the fact that Mt and Lk created two contradictory birth narratives.

Nevertheless, to correct some errors:

DNA exists in viruses as well.

Your conclusion does not follow your claim. Furthermore, your claim is incorrect. Indeed, protein structure across species demonstrates an increase--or change--in complexibility--see different proteins that trap oxygen via heme. This proves a nice example of evolution. Not relevant to explaining why YHWH slaughtered innocent women and children, of course . . . though perhaps it is because it suggests that the stories are stories . . . unless you wish to worship a deity that likes to slaughter innocent women and children.

Actually, they "scream" otherwise. Of course, the remainder of your post is a "Confession of Faith" and irrelevant to this forum. I will note, en passant, that Junior failed to return in the time he stated.

Welcome to the forums!

--J.D.