Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Eldarion Lathria · 07-30-2005, 08:57 PM

Have you considered, that the reason that any gods and goddesses do not contact is they do not WANT to be worshipped? It may be that they wish to be left alone.

Eldarion Lathria

Ojuice5001 · 07-30-2005, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldarion Lathria

Have you considered, that the reason that any gods and goddesses do not contact is they do not WANT to be worshipped? It may be that they wish to be left alone.

Eldarion Lathria

Except that most religionists would dispute the very thing you seek to explain: that gods and goddesses do not contact us.

Symptom · 07-30-2005, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojuice5001

Except that most religionists would dispute the very thing you seek to explain: that gods and goddesses do not contact us.

If they want to get in touch with me, I'm sure they have my e-mail address and telephone number. Or they could give me a vision, or break into a TV broadcast I'm watching, or send up smoke signals, or something, anything. But I've never seen anything that looks like an attempt to contact me. I don't understand what the purpose of a god revealing himself to some people and hiding himself from other people is. Rewarding blind faith in an unprovable abstract just seems a little... silly.

Vinnie · 07-30-2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by know_need_four_names

God(s)/Goddess(es) seem to be a distant concept. Even if I could the existance of God(s)/Goddess(es) or a spiritual world that parallels our's I would have a hard time trying to determine which religion represents the true will of the God(s)/Goddess(es). No matter how many times I compare the evidence involving the existance of God(s)/Goddess(es) I still end up empty handed. In fear of angering the true God(s)/Goddess(es) for worshiping false God(s)/Goddess(es) I have decided that it might be best if I refrain from taking part in any religious practice. Kind of like marriage. You wait for the right person. I am going to wait until I am certian of who the true God(s)/Goddess(es) is. Unlike Catholic nuns however I am not going to confuse the two and believe that I got married to Jesus. Does my stance on religious devotion seem somewhat unpractical?

Not at all. It looks like "reserve judgment till evidence presents itself" and that is always an intellectually safe place to be. Your post also embodies a good refuation of Pascal's Wager while at the same time endorsing its manner of thinking.

Dryhad · 07-31-2005, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

Your post also embodies a good refuation of Pascal's Wager while at the same time endorsing its manner of thinking.

Well that's because Pascal's Wager is flawed in the assumption that there are two choices. There are really thousands of choices, so Pascal's Wager actually endorses a position of non-allegiance: agnosticism.

Ojuice5001 · 07-31-2005, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dryhad

Well that's because Pascal's Wager is flawed in the assumption that there are two choices. There are really thousands of choices, so Pascal's Wager actually endorses a position of non-allegiance: agnosticism.

It has an excellent refutation for that reasoning, if by "Pascal's Wager" you mean what Pascal himself wrote. (Which I admit very few people do.) It only takes him one sentence to point out the flaw in that: "Yes, but you must wager."

Pascal recognized that deciding not to decide is a decision. In other words, choosing agnosticism is equivalent to choosing atheism. I find it very hard to believe that the gods take seriously the whole question of whether it's better to be an agnostic or a strong atheist, or any of the several other variations on not believing in god(s). Rather, a lifelong agnostic is just like a woman who says no to all her suitors. She may not have chosen to never get married until she dies, but is her situation any different than if she had?

That's why I mentioned the fact that although spiritual virginity is a possible path, it can easily lead to becoming an old maid. You won't find me threatening that this state is as dangerous as the Christians claim. The gods don't punish humans for their disbelief, and I don't think that reality contains any dangers as great as the Christian hell. However, I don't claim that there are no consequences; when a human doesn't enter a relationship with the gods, they don't pretend that he did.

mindovermyth · 07-31-2005, 09:45 AM

Maybe it should be called "Pascal's roulette". You have to play, but the odds would be higher if you opt for smaller religions: say Wicca is a single number while Christianity or Islam is more like betting on 0-11, 12-24 or 25-36 and Buddhism is like betting 1-6.

Now, as atheists/agnostics are generally a bit smarter, they are more likely to be casino owners.

IvanJames · 07-31-2005, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by know_need_four_names

Kind of like marriage. You wait for the right person. I am going to wait until I am certian of who the true God(s)/Goddess(es) is. Unlike Catholic nuns however I am not going to confuse the two and believe that I got married to Jesus. Does my stance on religious devotion seem somewhat unpractical?

Yes, it does. Like mr./ms. "right", the "right" god is a myth. People get together by getting to know each other. Your "perfect" person is not waiting for you in some remote corner of the earth. They're right in front of you, depending on who you get to know. The "right person" myth is there so that discouraged singles will keep trying.

Same goes for god. You might as well be worried about pissing off Elmer Fudd.

---Ivan James

Kassiana · 07-31-2005, 10:13 AM

You wascawwy wabbit, I'm gonna pewfowate you with buwwets! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Feaw the Fudd! /end cartoon impression

David B · 07-31-2005, 05:14 PM

NIce post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojuice5001

Yes, the set of god/desses who are angered by worshipping false gods is a Vanishing fraction of the whole, but still a Vast number. (I have read Darwin's Dangerous Idea too.

)

Glad to see you agree with me, and well spotted.

Quote:

When it comes down to it, there are also a Vast number of god/desses who are more offended by atheism than by any other choice.

True

Quote:

In Library of Babel terms, atheism and agnosticism are no safer than anything else.

Depends on the scale of Vastness. If you take atheism and agnosticism as two choices, and look at all the other choices of false gods you could have, then Atheism and agnosticism would be unsafe in Vanishingly small terms.

Quote:

The methodology I recommend is different (and admittedly favors my own beliefs). I favor giving significant preference to the non-Vast number of gods and goddesses that have actually been claimed to have revealed themselves. Separating the idea of a god from any god that people actually claim to be in contact with is an analytic tool commonly used by atheists, but not self-evidently the best.

But most of the gods who have been claimed to have revealed themselves are utter shits. I see no reason to give preference to them. Especially the sort of god who is claimed to have arranged his own death in order to save his own creation from his own wrath.

Quote:

I also think that our ideas about the gods should actually reflect the world that we see. Anthropomorphism isn't as wrongheaded as it's usually portrayed, for it simply means basing our ideas about the gods (the unknown)on analogies from the things we do know best (one of which is ourselves).

That seems to me a good description of simple animism. Or, as astrology does, giving human characteristics to the planets and the constellations in the sky.

Doesn't work for me.

David B

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07-30-2005, 08:57 PM	#11
Eldarion Lathria Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlantis Posts: 2,449	Have you considered, that the reason that any gods and goddesses do not contact is they do not WANT to be worshipped? It may be that they wish to be left alone. Eldarion Lathria

07-31-2005, 09:45 AM	#17
mindovermyth Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: china Posts: 547	Maybe it should be called "Pascal's roulette". You have to play, but the odds would be higher if you opt for smaller religions: say Wicca is a single number while Christianity or Islam is more like betting on 0-11, 12-24 or 25-36 and Buddhism is like betting 1-6. Now, as atheists/agnostics are generally a bit smarter, they are more likely to be casino owners.

07-31-2005, 10:13 AM	#19
Kassiana Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,046	You wascawwy wabbit, I'm gonna pewfowate you with buwwets! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Feaw the Fudd! /end cartoon impression

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