Baalthazaq

I wasn't really sure where to post this, so I decided to put it up in general religious discussions. (If anyone wishes to move it, please feel free).

For a long time now, I have called myself an "Unorthodox Sunni Muslim", occassionally adding "agnostic" in there for diplomatic purposes if I'm honest. However recently my beliefs have been reduced to what I can only describe as tatters.

I've been debating here since 2000 (on and off), and that hasn't really affected my beliefs on the whole other than to make me look more closely at certain details, but I find myself in the big picture still having the same beliefs.

The strength I have always had in my beliefs has stemmed from what I believed to be (and feel free to ridicule here) a relatively unbiased approach to my faith. I was brought up by my Catholic Grandfather, went to a Protestant (CoE) school, where I was one of only 2 theists in my class, before moving to Dubai and learning about Islam, at an international school.

What I found all the people I considered fanatical lacked any doubts, and lacked the ability to question their faith, and because I felt I was free to doubt, and free to shift between religions (or lack thereof), my choice was based on what conclusion I drew from what I learned.

This new crisis of faith has been inspired by the fact that I can no longer do so. I no longer have the lack of bias I started with, and as such I am unable to question my faith with the same level of viracity I was once able to. For the first time in my life I feel like I *need* religion.

Hard times recently in my personal life has meant that I need to draw comfort from somewhere and the only place I can draw comfort from is my religion. Due to recent events I have dropped out of university, been put on several courses of medication, been seeing a therapist, have been disowned and made homeless by portions of my family, and have lost many people close to me.

When all that happened I could only find any solace in religion, which in many respects was all I had left, but now that this is the case, I find myself knowing that I now need it. It was never an invisible means of support for me until now.

In summary, the problem becomes this:

I need it, so I cannot refute it for my own state of mind.
If I cannot refute it, I cannot test it incase the refutation occurs.
If I cannot test it, how can I be sure that it is true.
If I cannot be sure that it is true, how can I rely on it.

I have not lost my faith, but I need somehow to break this cycle if I am to be able to once again look honestly at my belief. Either to get it back or to do without it.

JPD

You are obviously very intelligent and faith is one of the hardest - perhaps the hardest - issues to address in one's life. I left Islam a while ago - about a year - and feel that it was the right thing to do. Doubts remain of course and it isn't possible to know 100% that God does or does not exist. But I don't base any decisions on this doubt and it creeps in only now and then. When I read the arguments employed by believers, though, I am reminded of why I am better off without it. All religious texts have errors in them. Doubtless you are aware of this. Ignore everything else and focus on that. But let the decision be yours for you whatever you decide to do. And don't feel bad about it.

PoodleLovinPessimist

It is one thing to believe in an abstract and mysterious God. Not something I as an atheist especially approve of, but as theistic beliefs go, it's not all that bad.

It's another thing entirely to believe that this abstract and mysterious God chose to reveal itself only to a few ancient goat herders barely into the Iron age, a rebel leader in Roman-occupied Palestine desperate for political legitimacy, and a megalomaniac piratical sex fiend in seventh century Arabia.

It's yet another thing to believe that such a God did so only to endorse the obviously parochial social structures and prejudices of those primitive societies as some sort of absolute moral code.

For the first, I can muster up some intellectual sympathy. I don't agree, but if that's what you feel like you need to believe, good for you. Martin Gardner was a deist, and while I don't agree with him, I do understand that he was considerably smarter than me.

The second I find completely ridiculous. For the third I have nothing but the most vitriolic hatred: This is the twenty-first century; to enforce in our society the moral beliefs of superstitious primitives is not only wrong but monstrously evil.

If you find yourself compelled to believe in a god, I urge you to examine the only sort of god that even begins to make sense: Either a deistic god or a god who reveals itself to each person equally by the agency of conscience. But to the extent that you are a rational person, I always urge you to reject the ridiculous idea that a god would play childish or malevolent hide-and-seek games, revealing itself only to schitzophrenic prophets, parasitical priests and megalomaniacs and deny any sort of authority to such people to establish the will of a god.

skipperZ

All sources of support we rely on, which we may think are permanent, aren't. If you rely on friends instead of religion for comfort, are they safer? They could be gone tomorrow as well. I think the solution to your dilemma is not to relinquish faith, but to find a way to accept that you can refute it, despite needing it, and bring yourself to do so. Like accepting the death of those we love and need, this is much easier said than done. Still, I think this is the part of your vicious cycle you need to change. Of course, it's also the hardest.

seebs

Hmm, interesting. I know what you mean; I distrust things I'm too sure of, or which are too important to dismantle. I mostly rely on the history of having beaten on them fairly hard; there is a pragmatic line to be drawn where it's time to just give up, admit that the world has appearances to you and you're interacting with them, and move on to doing something about it.

diana

Hi, Baal.

It's good to see you. I'm sorry to hear your life is going so badly right now. IMO, you've asked quite a bit of your friends in the OP--even your infidel friends. Or perhaps I should just speak for myself....

While I enjoy arguing points of religion, I find myself against a wall when someone announces that he is having any sort of faith crisis. At that point--for me, at least--it's no longer a question of logic and a battle of the minds that is on some level enjoyable for me (and, I assume, for him). At the point someone questions his faith, the whole situation changes into something deeply emotional. To change one's stance on faith (regardless of what it is) is to take the chance of alienating friends and/or family. If you are religious and are questioning your beliefs, you are relinquishing a source of strength and peace that is (or has been) very real for you. Over the years I've come to believe that some people simply don't have a source of strength within themselves that they can tap when their faith is gone; lacking such a belief in himself, a man will derive the same strength from his belief in a deity. I'm not saying you're such a person. I wouldn't know. What I'm saying is that everybody needs a source of strength, and when the rubber meets the road, I want you to have that strength.

Personally, I've found that life fluctuates. Things will be good for a while, then things will be bad for a while. I've learned that if I just hang in there and go about my business, things will eventually get better, whether I believe it's random or that God is just trying to teach me a lesson of some sort or bring me closer to him. You might be so deep in your faith right now that you can't honestly question it, but that too will fluctuate. When life gets better for you and things start working out, you won't need it as much, and you'll again be able to question.

You can rely on it because you believe it and it is the belief that gives you strength.

Here's hoping your current character-building period ends soon, and you're a better man for it--one way or another.

d

Alter

www.apostatesofislam.com

Plenty of theists/desists/agnostics there

MrWhy

Has religion or the belief in a god somehow played a part in your troubles? Belief in the supernatural will affect decisions made by you, your family, and the culture you are a part of. Has this belief held back progress in medicine, peace, or human understanding in the country where you lived? The influence of religion is very wide. Is the net effect positive or negative? Some think a primitive culture may benefit from religious belief, but I don't think anyone has ever tried education at the same intensity.

One point that is important to me is that reality will never disappoint or let you down, where mythical gods will. Selling the idea that one should spend all that effort to achieve life after death when there is none, is just life theft. They are stealing your energy and time that could be better spent acquiring knowledge and keeping yourself healthy. As an atheist I take comfort in knowing that I understand the human situation better than most. Even many who have better health, more money and power.

finallygotitright

Baal
I wish the best for you at this time. Read diana's post carefully. print it and return to it as your current situation changes. She is right on the money. Been where you are, it will change. Hang in there.

Kassiana

Honestly, I'd suggest trying to solve your other problems first. Get a job and a home, connect with those people who still accept you, and then think about what your religion is and what, if anything, to do about it. It seems to me that you have bigger problems than your current philosophical position. Good luck.