Originally Posted by johntheapostate

I will go over the discourse between Jesus and his countrymen to show that the author did intend the reader to understand that salvation was a privilege extended to a chosen group and was unattainable to anyone else.

John 6:30-31 “ So they asked him, What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert, as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.�

The Jews that had been fed with the five loaves and two fish demanded that Jesus perform another great miracle to show that he was the messiah. Jesus answers them .

John 6:32 “ Jesus said to them, I tell you the truth it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world�

Jesus cryptically states that he is the messiah come to save the world. His audience does not have a clue what he is talking about. He claims god as his father.

John 6:34 “ Sir they said, from know on give us this bread�

They still think Jesus is talking about bread, no doubt due to him feeding the great multitude.

Jesus then rebukes them for their ignorance

John 6:35 “Then Jesus declared, I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe�

Jesus must have told them earlier, that they did not understand his purpose even though they had been witness to his power. ( No doubt due to his beating around the bush ) Jesus then makes a comparison of them and a different group of people.

John 6:37-38 “ All the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will, but to do the will of him who sent me.

Jesus is clearly making a statement that god had chosen a certain group of people who had been singled out from the rest of humanity for salvation through the ability to comprehend and believe in him. The next verse makes it clear that this is the meaning Jesus intended to convey.

John 6:39 “ And this is the will of him who has sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up on the last day�

Jesus confirms the special status of the elect, none from this special group will fail to comprehend and believe his message all the members of this group will be saved The next verse is the one that apologists like to use when making the claim that salvation is available to all

John 6:40 “ For it is the will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.

This verse does not indicate that salvation is available to all. It is merely a clarification of the verse preceding it. Jesus had indicated that all that god had given him would be saved. This verse only clarifies the method of their salvation. It is better understood as every member of the privileged group that the Father has given Jesus will recognize and believe in him and will find salvation.

The next verse shows that Jesus countrymen did no belong to that special group.

John 6:41-42 “ At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, I am the bread that came down from heaven. They said, is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, who’s father and mother we know? How can he know say, I came down from heaven.�

The crowd had just been informed of the purpose of Jesus by Jesus himself plus they had been witness to his miracles, and yet they could not comprehend or believe in him. Jesus then clearly(for once) states the reason why.

John 6:44 “ Stop grumbling among yourselves, Jesus answered. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse could be interpreted. None of you can understand the message because you have not been enabled to do so.

How can this verse be interpreted to mean that god draws everybody and salvation is determined by the free will choice of the individual. Jesus had just rebuked the crowd for their incomprehension and this was the reason that he gave. The meaning of the text is clear. Earlier the concept of a privileged group who were guaranteed salvation had been formulated in the text. They had been privileged to be able to comprehend the meaning of Jesus and this verse is clearly used to confirm that the reason that the privileged could understand the message was because they had been enabled by god to do so, and in direct comparison those that could not comprehend the message had not been enabled.


The next verse that llamuluvr is so fond of is not in reference to all humanity but strictly to all the member that of the special group of those that had been enabled to believe.

John 6:45 “ It is written in the prophets, They will all be taught by god. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me�

Here the author has not indicated that everyone is equally been enabled to understand the message from god.. If taken in context it is merely a claim that only the followers of Christ have access to the truth, and that all others are excluded because they have not been enabled.

Jesus goes on in this line of reasoning for a while and we have the chapter closing with even his disciples grumbling about this teaching and again Jesus confirms his message that belief can only be secured by the enabling of god and that this had not been universally distributed to mankind.

John 6:63-64 “ The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe�

Here Jesus states that salvation can not be comprehended by the physical man but is given through the Spirit from god. He then indicates that his words represent that message but there are some who will not come to the comprehension that enables salvation even though they are hearing the message directly from him. Does Jesus indicate that this was due to their free will rejection of the message. No.

John 6:64-65 “ For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him�

Here we have a clear indication of cause and effect. The text does not say Jesus had known from the beginning who would reject the drawing of god and betray him, the text simply states that Jesus knew who did not believe and then it clearly states why this belief had not been possible in the case of Judas.

Judas carried the name of all the Jews and it is no accident that the authors of the gospels used a disciple with this name to portray the disciple who betrayed Jesus.

Originally Posted by llamaluvr

The only people who weren't enabled to "listen and learn" were those who weren't "children of God" (ch 8). Either way, theres the choice of whether or not to listen or learn or whether or not to be a child of God, or (more likely) the two combined.

Other than that, I really have little clue as to what your point is. Are you saying that only some could have salvation? Or that it was only all Jews, or that it was no Jews, only Gentiles, or that it was nobody at all? You'll probably need to be more concise, because you're losing me. Sorry!

If you want, you could just put these up in the other topic where you already have a bunch of general posts like these (which I already am in the process of answering in a text file on my desktop), so this topic doesn't get derailed.

Originally Posted by johntheapostate

Give your head a shake. This thread is about Biblical comprehension ( or lack thereof ) and you can not grasp what the text clearly outlines.

The text states for anyone who has intellectual integrity, that even though the message of Christ may be preached to all people, not all people will comprehend it. The reason for this non comprehension is clearly stated in the text as due to the withholding by god of the enabling process. No mention of any choice is contained in the text.

The text also states that there exists a privileged class of people who have been enabled and that none from this privileged group will be lost but will unfailingly believe in Christ.

I believe that this concept can be seen in this verse from the book of Acts.

Acts 13:48 " When the Gentiles heard this they were glad and honored the word of the Lord, and all those who were appointed for eternal life believed."

This verse speaks for itself but I will interpret it just in case the meaning is not clear.

When the Gentiles heard the message of Christ they were glad and all those who had been predestined for salvation comprehended and accepted the message

No mention of free will at all.

It must truly be important to you that the unbeliever really deserves to go to hell. Is this the only way that it is possible for you to dehumanize us so that you can maintain the integrity of your god concept?

Originally Posted by llamaluvr

But, once again, it also says that that withholding is done because people aren't listening to God in the first place. You listen and learn, and THEN you get Jesus. That's the free will action. It doesn't have to be rubber-stamped "free-will" in order to make that inference.

Originally Posted by llamaluvr

And quarrelling between denominations only proves that different people interpret the Bible differently (and possibly that certain ones are biased towards promoting their own view).

Originally Posted by johntheapostate

So we first have to believe before we are enabled to believe? Is this applicable to all religions or is it only good for Christianity?

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

If the Bible is the infallible word of God, wouldn't He have had the foresight to make sure it was so clearly written that there could be no possible way to misinterpret it?

Originally Posted by llamuluvr

The Bible only makes these claims in regards to followers of Jesus, so it could only be directly applied to Christianity.

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

We wouldn't NEED to verify these experiences. God's revelation would be clear, unambiguous, and uncomplicated by the messy problem of translation. As to a "standardized base" which of the dozens of Bibles are you referring to?

Originally Posted by johntheapostate

Are we to believe the claims of the Bible just because the Bible says they are true?