Layman

LOL. The truth of Christian anti-semitism is painful, ain't it? Fact is, Gibson got ambushed by Christians, Layman. This controversy is just another tree in the limitless savannah of Christians savaging Christians.

Yes, it is painful. And I did not deny that there has been awful and prevelant anti-semitism in Christianity.

And the leading critic of Gibson has been the Anti-Defamation League. Hardly making this an inter-nicene conflict.

Vorkosigan

BTW, the author of that film review that Bede cites above is Deal W. Hudson, who happens to be the editor of the conservative Catholic schlock rag Crisis, and, among other things, a smooth talking neocon scum, believing himself to be the wave of the future, when in reality he's just sewage flowing downhill. You will note that in typical disingenuous Christian apologist fashion, he does not note that he is an interested party in the text of his literate spew.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

The ADL has been one part. The other part has been.....several Catholic scholars. But it doesn't really matter. The whole thing is a publicity stunt cooked up by Gibson's lawyers, who clearly couple unlimited imagination with zero scruples.

Vorkosigan

Layman

I actually know that to be a grossly inaccurate statement.

RED DAVE

From CJD:

What the race of a follower of xtianity has to do with this situation is beyond me. My point is, simply, that plain and simple, unreflecting xtianity is inherently antisemitic as proved by its history.

Xtians just take for granted that the rest of the universe is going to perceive their faith through their eyes. As a nonbelieving Jew, who received a middling Jewish education, I have an entirely different take on your religion. From the point of view of my people, you perverted our religion, killed us, kicked us out of one country after another and then, just when things were starting to get good, you killed about 1/3 - 1/2 of us living on earth.

To present the gospel, uncritically, especially with that slightly snotty attitude that appears in the right-wing Spectator article, is inexcusable.

RED DAVE

Vorkosigan

True. Their imagination is probably rather limited.

Vorkosigan

CJD

I have not been to Africa, but have spent time with a few bishops from there who do not meet Spong's substandard descriptions. I have also been to enough third-world countries to see the latent syncretism therein.The point about Spong is exactly what you assumed about his response: "thoughtful." Puh-lease. His version of religion is little better than "naive, fundamentalist, and authoritarian versions." His views are not the balanced opposite of the Africans in question. IF a thoughtful response were given to many of Africa's religious leaders, then far be it from me to label them a racist. Spong is not prejudice regarding their ethnicity; he is prejudice regarding their faith.

I am far more willing to encourage the authoritarian fundy to move beyond that stuff when he or she loves the gospel, than Spong, who convulses when he hears words like "resurrection."

The point is simple, really. The ethnicity of a person exercises great influence over the person. Many of her views are shaped as a result of the specific culture in which she is reared. This is all elementary. In my upbringing, we don't carry anti-semitic baggage. Thus, your attack is more a result of your own prejudice, as opposed to taking who I am into account. But I would never argue that ideas can be disassociated from certain consequences. And this is the criterion upon which I base my disdain for your comments. There is no doubt the history of Christianity is shameful (heinous, despicable) at times, especially with regard to their treatment of certain ethnic groups. It seems to me, though, that people are largely to blame for anti-semitism—not the doctrines of historic, orthodox Xianity.

To use your own words: "Unreflecting [non-Christianity] is inherently [nihilistic] as proved by its history." Sure, you can point to horrific events in our past, but from my perspective, if it's Christianity and the world, then the world has a few more heinous events to account for.

You can piss off for that. Do you know any Christians today who would defend such wanton destruction? Were all Christians in the Church's checkered past defenders of the Crusades? What you should realize, RED, is that this flippancy with which life is treated is a distinctly HUMAN problem—not a Christian one.

Well, of course! But the same goes for any-wing. Besides, the gospel shouldn't even be "presented." It should be lived-out, which is itself a presentation. If you think this necessarily results in anti-semitism, then you are willfully closing your eyes to reality: Christian mercy ministries alone (for example)—whatever their affiliation—are too numerous to count for fun.

Now, which one of us suffers more from prejudicial preconceptions?

CJD

JoeWallack

JW:
The anonymous "John" is generally regarded as the most detailed account of Jesus' "Passion". Here it is in its entirety:

John 18: (KJV)

"3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
13 And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.
14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
15 And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.
16 But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter.
17 Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
18 And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself.
19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
21 Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
22 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
23 Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
24 Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.
25 And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not.
26 One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.
31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.

19 1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.
5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."


Gibson's basic problem is how does he present the "Passion" "just the way it happened", "like traveling back in time and watching the events unfold exactly as they occurred.",
"telling the story as the Bible tells it", "as it really happened, speaks for itself", "The Gospel is a complete script, and that's what we're filming.", "When you're dealing with non-fiction, a director's responsibility is to make it as accurate as possible."
and "you hear the words spoken as they were spoken at the time," as a three hour movie when he has the equivalent of one modern page of supporting narrative to work with?


Joseph

"Remember Jerry, it's not a lie if you really believe it's true." - George Constanza

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Errors...hristian_Bible

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/abdulreis/myhomepage/

Layman

Hmm. They got the manuscripts back. And a quasi-apology from the National Council of Bishops.

What this affair has taught me is that the louder and more adamant Vork is about an issue, the more likely it is he has no idea what he is talking about.

Family Man

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