Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 05-02-2007, 03:30 AM

http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/per...-mohammed.html

Quote:

“This last work of the great Belgian scholar Henri Pirenne offered a new and revolutionary interpretation of the evolution of Europe from the time of Constantine to that of Charlemagne. Pirenne’s major thesis is that it was the advance of Islam rather than the Germanic invasions that caused the break with antiquity and the consequent decline of Western civilization in the Middle Ages.”

Has anyone asked if 1453 with the fall of the Roman Empire - had two effects- the Renaissance caused by the fleeing of the elite from Constantinople to Venice and Italy, and the importation of Islamic puritan concepts into Christendom via Luther?

premjan · 05-02-2007, 03:40 AM

Protestantism is not Islamic in the sense of centralization (in that sense Catholicism is closer) but it is Islamomorphic in insisting on the primacy of the holy book over the authority of the church. It is also a bit puritan and reactionary (well, perhaps harking back to the Old Testament) and also Judeomorphic in its tendency to favor circumcision perhaps?

Malachi151 · 05-02-2007, 07:22 AM

But Islam is not centralized either, so I don't see that comparison as valid.

But isn't this thesis talking about the fall of the Roman empire around the 5th century, not the rise of Protestantism?

premjan · 05-02-2007, 07:30 AM

I suppose I was thinking about Haj and Caliphate. But Protestants could have pilgrimage to the holy land as well. The OP is also talking about Luther.

Malachi151 · 05-02-2007, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

I suppose I was thinking about Haj and Caliphate. But Protestants could have pilgrimage to the holy land as well. The OP is also talking about Luther.

I'm confused by the OP, I'm not really sure what it is talking about.

"the advance of Islam rather than the Germanic invasions that caused the break with antiquity and the consequent decline of Western civilization in the Middle Ages."

Yeah, the Caliphate is sort of a Pope like position, but it has never been even close to the power and authority of the Pope. Overall, at least from my understanding, Islam makes much use of local Imams over centralized authority figures.

premjan · 05-02-2007, 07:40 AM

Well, I think the OP is trying to say that the Protestant Reformation effectively made Christianity over in the image of Islam.

Malachi151 · 05-02-2007, 07:50 AM

It sounds like some kind of weird attempt to blame all of the ills of the West on Islam to me...

premjan · 05-02-2007, 07:51 AM

Islam is just a historical force and an amorphous entity so it makes no sense to blame it.

enoch007 · 05-02-2007, 08:14 AM

Isn't Protestantism singularly un-Islamic because of it's division of the godhead between god and christ? Isn't the central tenant of Islam the primacy of Allah above all gods with no division (despite the acceptance of the primacy of Mohammed as a prophet, not messianic/god-savior)

Werbert · 05-02-2007, 08:27 AM

I do not believe that Protestantism can be called an offshoot of Islam. The Protestant movement was a reaction against the troubles of Catholicism. Besides, the centers of Protestantism were in Northern Europe, far away from the Islamic world. If we accept that Protestantism was an offshoot of Islam, shouldn't we also expect that the movement would have sprung up in Southern Europe, i.e. Spain, Hungary, etc.? But those places were Catholic bastions.

On top of that, the rise of Protestantism did not take place until almost a millennium after the fall of the Roman Empire. The article is not really talking about the rise of Protestantism, but the rise of the German nation.

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05-02-2007, 03:40 AM	#2
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Protestantism is not Islamic in the sense of centralization (in that sense Catholicism is closer) but it is Islamomorphic in insisting on the primacy of the holy book over the authority of the church. It is also a bit puritan and reactionary (well, perhaps harking back to the Old Testament) and also Judeomorphic in its tendency to favor circumcision perhaps?

05-02-2007, 07:22 AM	#3
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	But Islam is not centralized either, so I don't see that comparison as valid. But isn't this thesis talking about the fall of the Roman empire around the 5th century, not the rise of Protestantism?

05-02-2007, 07:30 AM	#4
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	I suppose I was thinking about Haj and Caliphate. But Protestants could have pilgrimage to the holy land as well. The OP is also talking about Luther.

05-02-2007, 07:40 AM	#6
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Well, I think the OP is trying to say that the Protestant Reformation effectively made Christianity over in the image of Islam.

05-02-2007, 07:50 AM	#7
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	It sounds like some kind of weird attempt to blame all of the ills of the West on Islam to me...

05-02-2007, 07:51 AM	#8
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Islam is just a historical force and an amorphous entity so it makes no sense to blame it.

05-02-2007, 08:14 AM	#9
enoch007 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 4,047	Isn't Protestantism singularly un-Islamic because of it's division of the godhead between god and christ? Isn't the central tenant of Islam the primacy of Allah above all gods with no division (despite the acceptance of the primacy of Mohammed as a prophet, not messianic/god-savior)

05-02-2007, 08:27 AM	#10
Werbert Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: US Posts: 116	I do not believe that Protestantism can be called an offshoot of Islam. The Protestant movement was a reaction against the troubles of Catholicism. Besides, the centers of Protestantism were in Northern Europe, far away from the Islamic world. If we accept that Protestantism was an offshoot of Islam, shouldn't we also expect that the movement would have sprung up in Southern Europe, i.e. Spain, Hungary, etc.? But those places were Catholic bastions. On top of that, the rise of Protestantism did not take place until almost a millennium after the fall of the Roman Empire. The article is not really talking about the rise of Protestantism, but the rise of the German nation.

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