Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dave Hawkins · 09-24-2007, 07:29 AM

Quote:

How about offering the slightest bit of evidence in favour of the miraculous, just to humour us?

I have elsewhere. But you apparently don't accept it. In fact, I wrote a blog article just the other day on how I asked Notta_Skeptic what she would do if she were God to convince people of His (Her?) existence. Her answer was very surprising.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/2007/09/...at-god-exists/

spin · 09-24-2007, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

McDowell gives them as follows ...

There's one thing that you and McDowell have in common: you are both clueless about archaeology. It is so sad when the blind lead the blind.

shirley knott · 09-24-2007, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

THE PRESUPPOSITIONS OF THE DOCUMENTARIANS
...snip...
So what have I done so far? I have stated asserted the 5 major presuppostions of the Documentarians and shown asserted that they have been refuted. Many more examples are cited asserted by McDowell in support of this.

Fixed two wording errors for you dave.

Odd how nothing in your massive paraphrase of that dishonest hack McDowell provides any support whatsoever for the views you are espousing.
Lots of assertions, precious little evidence.
There is no 'there' there, dave.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

Lucretius · 09-24-2007, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

THE PRESUPPOSITIONS OF THE DOCUMENTARIANS

McDowell gives them as follows ...

Quote:

1) Priority of source analysis over archaeology
2) Natural view of Israel's religion and history
3) No writing in Israel at Moses' time
4) Legendary view of the patriarchal narratives

but as I said, prior to this, he writes a whole chapter entitled "The Presupposition of Anti-Supernaturalism." So we really have 5.

So let me put samplings of McDowell's support for these points in this post ...

1) Priority of source analysis over archaeology
As I said, it seems to me that Dean makes McDowell's point for him with his opening sentence ... "The Documentary Hypothesis is derived from the text of the Torah ..." Dean adds later that "There is no part of the DH that asserts that archaeology disagrees with the text and therefore archaeology is wrong - which is what McDowell's claim is." But this is not McDowell's claim. McDowell claims exactly what I have written, nothing more. That PRIORITY is given to the text, not archaeology. A detailed study of the critics own words reveal their bias toward textual analysis and their relative indifference toward the rather new findings of archaeology.

I will give one example from McDowell quoting J. Pederson, a Swedish scholar and one of the pioneers of the oral tradition school ... One of the greatest archaeologists of the 20th century, William F. Albright, the man responsible for verifying the authenticity of the Dead Sea Scrolls wrote Why? Because he did not consider the findings of archaeology as one of his quotes below reveals. But as all now agree, in general historical studies, archaeological findings should be very important. Albright says ... And from the pen of one of the radical critics himself, Gunkel says that he... Yes, it must. And it has begun. So to summarize this point, the DH advocates based their hypothesis on the document itself and ignored the findings of archaeology. This was a huge mistake.

Dave what archaeology ?
What archaeological evidence do you have for these clay tablets that Wiseman proposes ?
You appear to claiming the primacy of archaeology and in some way a "moral high ground" in spite of absolutley NO ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE that the Pentateuch was ever written on clay tablets and transported around for hundreds if not thousands of years,until it was transcribed and the tablets disposed of.
These tablets have never been found Dave in spite of all the archaeology in the relevant areas by both atheist & Christian/Jewish archaeologists .
Again Dave NOT ONE fragment with just ONE LINE has ever been found

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

[3) No writing in Israel at Moses' time
Wellhausen himself assumed this and so did many other scholars of the day ... Anyone who studies the development of the DH honestly has to admit that this presupposition had an enormous effect on the DH. If you subscribe to the erroneous view that writing did not exist in Israel in Moses' day, of course you would have no choice but to hypothesize that the Pentateuch was a much later creation. Which is exactly what the Documentarians did. And they were wrong about writing in Moses' day.

Dave this has already been covered earlier in the thread IF you are unable to even understand the quotes you post OR the explanation offered to you ,please let us know so we can explain it again in terms you may understand .
Repetition of your misunderstanding is not a valid argument

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

So what have I done so far? I have stated the 5 major presuppostions of the Documentarians and shown that they have been refuted. Many more examples are cited by McDowell in support of this.

And I hope you can see what a powerful influence these false presuppositions would have had on the formation of the Documentary Hypothesis.

That's all the heavy typing I'm up for today. Next, I will post evidence of written records prior to the Flood. And while we are waiting for that, I wonder if Dean can produce evidence for the existence of the J, E, D, and P documents. Even a shred. Are any of these documents ever mentioned in other ancient documents? Ever?

Can you Dave produce "evidence for the existence of the Tablets Even a
fragment . Are any of these tablets ever mentioned in other ancient documents? Ever?

VoxRat · 09-24-2007, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

How about offering the slightest bit of evidence in favour of the miraculous, just to humour us?

I have elsewhere. But you apparently don't accept it. In fact, I wrote a blog article just the other day on how I asked Notta_Skeptic what she would do if she were God to convince people of His (Her?) existence. Her answer was very surprising.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/2007/09/...at-god-exists/

Ah, good ol' "elsewhere". The evidence is always "elsewhere".

I'm only interested in evidence that exists in the real world. If the best you can do is your private wanksite blog, I'm not interested.

ericmurphy · 09-24-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWE

HA! A famous expert who is a real expert says you are wrong. Show me your proof for your claims. If I go to Wikipedia I don't even FIND "literary artefacts". But if I did find it in Wiki it would just be an example of bias.

Who's your expert? Wikipedia? This has got to be a joke. Take any introductory class on the Old Testament and you'll realize that you're full of shit and wikipedia is a joke.

It is a joke. At Dave's expense.

Ray Moscow · 09-24-2007, 07:37 AM

And I and others have already commented on Dave's "evidence" (the lack thereof) here.

Assertion and unsubstantiated stories are not evidence.

ericmurphy · 09-24-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

THE PRESUPPOSITIONS OF THE DOCUMENTARIANS

McDowell gives them as follows ...

Quote:

1) Priority of source analysis over archaeology
2) Natural view of Israel's religion and history
3) No writing in Israel at Moses' time
4) Legendary view of the patriarchal narratives

but as I said, prior to this, he writes a whole chapter entitled "The Presupposition of Anti-Supernaturalism." So we really have 5.

So let me put samplings of McDowell's support for these points in this post ...

Dave, do you even understand what claims the DH is making are? You haven't addressed a single point Dean made in his post, and still have not given the slightest indication that you even understand what the documentary hypothesis even is.

Are you at some point going to present evidence that the Pentateuch has a single author? Because if you can't do that, you have nothing to show that the DH is wrong. You're attacking entirely subsidiary points that have absolutely nothing to do with the central claims of the DH.

ericmurphy · 09-24-2007, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

How about offering the slightest bit of evidence in favour of the miraculous, just to humour us?

I have elsewhere. But you apparently don't accept it. In fact, I wrote a blog article just the other day on how I asked Notta_Skeptic what she would do if she were God to convince people of His (Her?) existence. Her answer was very surprising.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/2007/09/...at-god-exists/

Dave, as has been pointed out to you before, if your god were all-knowing and all-powerful, no one would have any choice about believing in god. Are you really so clueless as to believe that an omnipotent deity would have difficulty convincing people of his existence? Just how gullible are you?

And no, you have provided no evidence of the supernatural at all, anywhere. All you've done is redefine the term to mean anything we don't have an explanation for yet. Which means that a cat's purr is a supernatural phenomenon, by your definition.

gregor · 09-24-2007, 07:45 AM

Have I missed all the answers that afd was supposed to give to things like - populations pre and post flood, languages pre and post flood, geologic evidence for a global flood, explanation of egyptian pyramids built after the flood, & etc.?

(Disclaimer: I'm going off of scotch-clouded memory, but I can't seem to remember him ever answering these challenges, yet he's here on another rant)

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09-24-2007, 07:37 AM	#87
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	And I and others have already commented on Dave's "evidence" (the lack thereof) here. Assertion and unsubstantiated stories are not evidence.

09-24-2007, 07:45 AM	#90
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Have I missed all the answers that afd was supposed to give to things like - populations pre and post flood, languages pre and post flood, geologic evidence for a global flood, explanation of egyptian pyramids built after the flood, & etc.? (Disclaimer: I'm going off of scotch-clouded memory, but I can't seem to remember him ever answering these challenges, yet he's here on another rant)

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