Toto

Some off topic posts are here

Ben C Smith

What a great post. Thanks for linking to it.

I was especially interested in what Carrier has to say about MacDonald:

In a nutshell, he argues that Luke used as his sources the Gospels of Mark and Matthew (as Q-deniers have long maintained), as well as the Dominical Logia referred to by Papias, and that in fact this Dominical Logia was used as a source by all three Synoptic Gospels, Mark included....

This is pretty much the relationship of texts I have been suspecting for several years now. (Of course I have no idea if his reasons for thinking so and mine are even compatible; they may or may not be.)

...and in effect represents the original (and now lost) Gospel of Jesus (as I would put it). The clincher for me is the fact that a surprising effect arises from the reconstruction that follows from his theory: the Dominical Logia appears to be a mythical emulation and transvaluation of the Septuagint book of Deuteronomy. As this fit is highly improbable unless MacDonald's reconstruction is correct, I think MacDonald is going to win this argument in the long run.

I will have to read the book to see if (A) the reconstruction of the logia works and (B) if the connection to Deuteronomy is clear. And I dislike the word transvaluation. But I was pleased to read that he is backing off of his Homeric emulation thesis somewhat. I agree with Carrier; if the gospels are emulating anything (and I believe they are), it is the LXX they are emulating in the main.

At any rate, I am looking forward to reading the upcoming MacDonald book.

This whole Jesus Project thing got off to a horrific start with the membership list scandal and such, but IMVHO it looks like it is really starting to shape up.

Does it appear to anyone like the Project is avoiding the question of the existence of Jesus?

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

MacDonald and a colleague of his have been presenting their ideas on a "Q Plus" solution to the synoptic problem for the past couple of SBL annual meetings. Their work has generally been received as implausible, but perhaps the book will be more persuasive.

Stephen

Ben C Smith

Well, thanks for trying to pop my balloon.

What in particular do you (or others) find implausible? (Keep in mind that this is the first I have heard of this.)

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

I'm having a hard time remembering the particulars because it really seemed convoluted. Carrier's description makes it sound better than it is.

Stephen

Ben C Smith

That was sort of how I felt about Klinghardt. Involving Marcion in the synoptic problem is a great idea in theory, but in practice the resultant textual relationships were just as complicated as — indeed more so than — most of the conventional solutions.

Ben.

dog-on

Hello Jeffrey.

I apologize for being unclear.

I believe that the idea of Aramaic originals, with regards to any of the NT writings, can not be substantiated based on any available evidence.

The much simpler solution, that the NT writers where familiar with and in some ways mimicked the writing of the Septuagint, that they where, likely, non-Jewish and that they had probably never visited Palestine, seems much more likely and is, at least, evidence based.

In fairness, I was most put off by his remark concerning the question of the existence of Jesus.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh as a result and, to be fair, I withdraw my claim that the writer is full of shit.
:redface:

wordy

Re Aramaic? Could they be like us in Sweden. Our intellectuals and such people love to put in Latin sayings, French and German sayings in texts to show they are well educated.

I mean Jews love to refer to verses in their Tanak? Jesus are alleged to do it again and again. so the Gospel writers maybe tried to show them was well educated and did throw in a few Aramaic quotations to give it more cred or just for show. Sounds cool to do a Mea Culpa here and there.

Re what Carrier write in his report. Thanks indeed for link to it.

To Toto and all of you
Is it off topic to ask for a short easy to grasp explanation of Bayes theorem?

youngalexander

Eisenmann
Well, that is at least one less book to wade thru.

Camio

Did you read Carrier's own tutorial?