Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 03-16-2013, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You might view him as a religious liberal, although this doesn't sound like a liberal:

My brother [cousin] Constantius of honored memory [in whose reign, 337-361, severe laws were enacted against the Jews] was not so much responsible for these wrongs of yours as were the men who used to frequent his table, barbarians in mind, godless in soul. These I seized with my own hands and put them to death by thrusting them into the pit, that not even any memory of their destruction might still linger amongst us.

Julian may have been referring to people in the court of Constantius like the despotic "Paulus the Chain" who was responsible for the torture and execution of "NUMBERS WITHOUT END" of (non-Christian) people. For details see Ammianus.

Ammianus Marcellinus, The Later Roman Empire: A.D. 354-378 (Penguin Classics)
Notes on persons, page 484

Paul “the chain”=Paulus “catena”

Quote:

Notary under Constantius, conducts bloody investigations of supporters of Magmentius (14.5),Gallus (15.3) and Silvanus (15.6), supervises Julian in Gaul, then sent East for inquiry (19.12) where he punishes opponents of Bishop George of Alexandria, condemned by the Chalcedon commission and burnt alive (22.3)

Paulus catena was a typical roman of the late Roman Empire ( from 3rd century AD) torturing and killing the enemies of his would be emperor.Pagan Rome replaced the defunct emperor by the method of civil war, torture, the killing of all people related to the previous emperor ...

Paul Catena was an exterminator of all the enemies of his boss.

Apodemius was another one of the many catenas then common in pagan and early Arian Christian Rome
1. Ammianus Marcellinus, xiv.11.19.
2. ^ Ammianus Marcellinus, xiv.11.23.
3. ^ a b Ammianus Marcellinus, xv.1.2.
4. ^ a b Ammianus Marcellinus, xv.5.8—9.
5. ^ Ammianus Marcellinus, xxii.3.11.

Quote:

In 361 Constantius II died; his successor was Julian, half-brother of Constantius Gallus. The new emperor instituted the Chalcedon tribunal to bring to trial the officers of Constantius II, in particular their involvement in Gallus' fall and death. Apodemius, who by the time had already returned to private life, was found guilty of having plotted against Gallus and put to death.[5]

Contemporary historian Ammianus Marcellinus, who throughout his Roman History criticizes the courtiers of Constantius for their bad influence on the Emperor and for their numberless plots, has a bad opinion of Apodemius, of whom he says that "as long as he lived had been a fiery instigator of disturbances"[3] and that "was a persevering and bitter enemy to all good men".[4]

Google Apodemius

Cheerful Charlie · 03-16-2013, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

From reading about Julian it is not very clear at all as to what kind of pagan he actually was. Even in the history of Sozomen that records an alleged letter to Jews from Julian, Julian professes belief in the Most High God, Creator, with no reference to any pagan deities. Of course it is impossible to say even whether such a letter was authentic or merely the literary device and religious exaggeration of the state-sponsored author called Sozomen.

Was the Edict of Toleration in 362 anything more than a sign of pre-Christian liberalism on his part, especially given his apparent allegiance to the one monotheistic God?

Furthermore, despite conventional wisdom suggesting he wanted the Jews to rebuild the Temple, there is no evidence that this is true. It might be suggested that he wanted to rebuild a Jewish community in Jerusalem but nothing more. No ancient Jewish sources to my knowledge ever mentioned the plan by Julian to rebuild the Temple either.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/julian-jews.asp

Interestingly, according to traditional Jewish chronology the Jerusalem Talmud was redacted around the period after his death in a hurried manner, making it more difficult to study than the Babylonian Talmud.

Pagannism had a lot of diifferennt flavours, Zeus in some traditions was not the less than respectable polytheism of Homer's Illiad, but a far more refied polytheism that placed Zeus at the head of a heirarchy of Gods as exalted as Jehova of the Jews. A creator God of unsurpased wisdom. The god of Plato. I suspect Julian would have leaned to the latter sort of Paganism.

Cheerful Charlie

Iskander · 03-17-2013, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

From reading about Julian it is not very clear at all as to what kind of pagan he actually was. Even in the history of Sozomen that records an alleged letter to Jews from Julian, Julian professes belief in the Most High God, Creator, with no reference to any pagan deities. Of course it is impossible to say even whether such a letter was authentic or merely the literary device and religious exaggeration of the state-sponsored author called Sozomen.

Was the Edict of Toleration in 362 anything more than a sign of pre-Christian liberalism on his part, especially given his apparent allegiance to the one monotheistic God?

Furthermore, despite conventional wisdom suggesting he wanted the Jews to rebuild the Temple, there is no evidence that this is true. It might be suggested that he wanted to rebuild a Jewish community in Jerusalem but nothing more. No ancient Jewish sources to my knowledge ever mentioned the plan by Julian to rebuild the Temple either.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/julian-jews.asp

Interestingly, according to traditional Jewish chronology the Jerusalem Talmud was redacted around the period after his death in a hurried manner, making it more difficult to study than the Babylonian Talmud.

The emperor Julian wanted to follow the good example of Zeus.

Julian wanted to show generosity in his dealing with the subjects of the empire. He identified the Jews as one group of subjects with a grievance.

Pagans to Christians and repugnant idolaters to Judaism, the people living outside the Jesus and Hashem cults could be very religious and live the life of the righteous

THE LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
THE WORKS OF THE EMPEROR JULIAN
WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION BY
WILMER CAVE WRIGHT, PH.D.
IN THREE VOLUMES
II
FRAGMENT OF A LETTER TO A PRIEST 297

Quote:

I mean that we call Zeus by the title ".God of Strangers," while we show ourselves more inhospitable to strangers than are the very Scythians. How, I ask, can one who wishes to sacrifice to Zeus, the God of Strangers, even approach his temple? With what conscience can he do so, when he has forgotten the saying “From Zeus come all beggars and strangers; and a gift is precious though small"? l
Again, the man who worships Zeus the God Comrades, and who, though he sees his neighbours in need of money, does not give them even so much as a drachma, how, I say, can he think that he is worshipping Zeus aright?

Chili · 03-17-2013, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Pagans to Christians and repugnant idolaters to Judaism, the people living outside the Jesus and Hashem cults could be very religious and live the life of the righteous

THE LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
THE WORKS OF THE EMPEROR JULIAN
WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION BY
WILMER CAVE WRIGHT, PH.D.
IN THREE VOLUMES
II
FRAGMENT OF A LETTER TO A PRIEST 297

Quote:

I mean that we call Zeus by the title ".God of Strangers," while we show ourselves more inhospitable to strangers than are the very Scythians. How, I ask, can one who wishes to sacrifice to Zeus, the God of Strangers, even approach his temple? With what conscience can he do so, when he has forgotten the saying “From Zeus come all beggars and strangers; and a gift is precious though small"? l
Again, the man who worships Zeus the God Comrades, and who, though he sees his neighbours in need of money, does not give them even so much as a drachma, how, I say, can he think that he is worshipping Zeus aright?

To be religious and live the life of the righteous would be like 'look-alikes' while righteous they are not if they have to live the life of others.

Iskander · 03-17-2013, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Pagans to Christians and repugnant idolaters to Judaism, the people living outside the Jesus and Hashem cults could be very religious and live the life of the righteous

THE LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
THE WORKS OF THE EMPEROR JULIAN
WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION BY
WILMER CAVE WRIGHT, PH.D.
IN THREE VOLUMES
II
FRAGMENT OF A LETTER TO A PRIEST 297

To be religious and live the life of the righteous would be like 'look-alikes' while righteous they are not if they have to live the life of others.

Yes, “look-alikes” is the perfect explanation for the OP.
Righteous is an alien word to me, but I endeavour to make the ‘kind of a pagan someone is’ easier to understand by the righteous.

Chili · 03-17-2013, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Pagans to Christians and repugnant idolaters to Judaism, the people living outside the Jesus and Hashem cults could be very religious and live the life of the righteous

THE LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
THE WORKS OF THE EMPEROR JULIAN
WITH AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION BY
WILMER CAVE WRIGHT, PH.D.
IN THREE VOLUMES
II
FRAGMENT OF A LETTER TO A PRIEST 297

To be religious and live the life of the righteous would be like 'look-alikes' while righteous they are not if they have to live the life of others.

Yes, “look-alikes” is the perfect explanation for the OP.
Righteous is an alien word to me, but I endeavour to make the ‘kind of a pagan someone is’ easier to understand by the righteous.

Good for you, and I like Plato's summary on this wherein they are deprived of the privation that they see. I think Plato called them failed philosophers as wisdom chasers now.

Dialogue is great for this wherein only a question-mark needs to be placed behind what people say, and let them ponder on their own so that the answer will be theirs to 're-collect,' which may not be the end of truth, but is a step in the right direction made.

Duvduv · 03-17-2013, 06:11 AM

If the Julian religion was this philosophy, it may still not be different than the monotheism expressed in the letter to the Jews whereby he considered Zeus the Greek name for the God of the jews, though this is mentioned nowhere in the letter to the Jews. In Louis Feldman's book I seem to remember writings atttibuted to ancients who made this claim and said that it was not the same as Greek polytheism. I will have to see if I can find it.

Iskander · 03-17-2013, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

If the Julian religion was this philosophy, it may still not be different than the monotheism expressed in the letter to the Jews whereby he considered Zeus the Greek name for the God of the jews, though this is mentioned nowhere in the letter to the Jews. In Louis Feldman's book I seem to remember writings atttibuted to ancients who made this claim and said that it was not the same as Greek polytheism. I will have to see if I can find it.

What do you find specifically Jewish or, in general, monotheistic about Julian’s letter to a priest?

From Julian’s letter to a priest

Quote:

Therefore if any man thinks that because they have once been called likenesses of the gods, they are incapable of being destroyed, he is, it seems to me, altogether foolish; for surely in that case they were incapable of being made by men's hands. But what has been made by a wise and good man can be destroyed by a bad and ignorant man.

But those beings which were fashioned by the gods as the living images of their invisible nature, I mean the gods who revolve in a circle in the heavens, abide imperishable for all time. Therefore let no man disbelieve in gods because he sees and hears that certain persons have profaned their images and temples

Quote:

Therefore let no man deceive us with his sayings or trouble our faith in a divine providence. For as for those who make such profanation a reproach against us, I mean the prophets of the Jews, what have they to say about their own temple, which was overthrown three times and even now is not being raised up again? This I mention not as a reproach against them, for I myself, after so great a lapse of time intended to restore it, in honour of the god whose name has been associated with it

Duvduv · 03-17-2013, 08:46 AM

Well, who knows which is truly authentic among these texts?
Temple overthrown THREE times and raised up again?
There is no evidence from the letter to the Jews that the author was authorizing construction of a Temple, so one should question whether this letter and the letter to the Jews were written by the same person.

The letter to the Jews attributed to Julian sounds very sympathetic to Jewish monotheism.

Iskander · 03-17-2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Well, who knows which is truly authentic among these texts?
Temple overthrown THREE times and raised up again?
There is no evidence from the letter to the Jews that the author was authorizing construction of a Temple, so one should question whether this letter and the letter to the Jews were written by the same person.

The letter to the Jews attributed to Julian sounds very sympathetic to Jewish monotheism.

I am not arguing with you, nor am I denying that Julian may have been sympathetic to Jews.

I am trying to understand your OP. Julian was a good man and polytheist .He wanted to build a temple for the Jews to make them happy and this generous offer came straight out of the goodness of his polytheist heart.

His compassion for those very Jews who loathe the repugnant idolater and who would never have done for him and his people what he , as the Master of the Jews, was planning to do for them: to build a temple to glorify the Jewish idol Hashem,

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03-17-2013, 06:11 AM	#27
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	If the Julian religion was this philosophy, it may still not be different than the monotheism expressed in the letter to the Jews whereby he considered Zeus the Greek name for the God of the jews, though this is mentioned nowhere in the letter to the Jews. In Louis Feldman's book I seem to remember writings atttibuted to ancients who made this claim and said that it was not the same as Greek polytheism. I will have to see if I can find it.

03-17-2013, 08:46 AM	#29
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Well, who knows which is truly authentic among these texts? Temple overthrown THREE times and raised up again? There is no evidence from the letter to the Jews that the author was authorizing construction of a Temple, so one should question whether this letter and the letter to the Jews were written by the same person. The letter to the Jews attributed to Julian sounds very sympathetic to Jewish monotheism.

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