Ray Moscow

Agreed.

Well, there's a lot to cover I suppose. Looking at John's gospel (the latest, and with more theological developments):

water:
Luke says that this water baptism was of "repentance" and for remission of sins, a sort of ceremonial cleansing:

spirit:

So, this "spirit" baptism was greater than the water one in some way. The two are played with a bit in John 3.

for fire, let's look at Luke's version:

Hmmm ... something bigger still?

Sounds like some sort of destructive ordeal -- but for a guy about to be killed, maybe this fits.

So, three of the four Aristotle elements are used here for "baptism". I don't know what it all means, but I'm tempted to think of different stages of psychological initiation for the devotee.

Other thoughts?

Ray

Clivedurdle

I am ex Assemblies of God and was baptised in the holy spirit and can still speak with tongues. Classic pentecostal theology is that Holy Spirit and tongues of fire are identical, just different ways of saying same thing, so there are only two baptisms - water and fire. There are arguments about if you need to be baptised in the holy spirit to be saved.

Now is a baptism of earth death? Dust to dust?

And air?

That is heaven isn't it? So this is a complete system based on the four elements. John the Baptist came to baptise in water - somehow incomplete...Jesus death and resurrection joins humanity with the four elements. Clever stuff!

Cege

This could have been a result of believing that God, as it's told in Genesis, created man from clay.

Clivedurdle

But that is my point in wanting to create theobiology! There were four elements - earth, air, fire and water. Clay is earth and water, breathe in rauch - air or spirit - and you have life!

Fire is probably directly related to god - holy, pure, consuming, punishing in hell, tongues of fire, the magic of the smith turning ore into knives.

Ray Moscow

Yes, God is a consuming fire -- or sometimes nonconsuming fire, as in the burning bush or in the tongues of flame at Pentecost.

Angels and jinn are made of fire, in Islamic belief.

The earth (clay) element is already there in Adam, who when he received the breath (spirit) of life became a "living soul". Also, the cave theme -- manger birth and cave tomb -- carry the earth motif, too.

Clivedurdle

Let's look at something using the four element structure.

The creationists have caused us to lose the power and symmetry of this very impressive poem, that is clearly built on a sophisticated understanding using the four elements.

Cege

Don't forget that serpents were condemned to eat dust/dirt

Clivedurdle

And our punishment was to farm.

Baalazel

Rejecting the mumbo-jumbo misses the point, as you say. But it is mumbo-jumbo isn’t it? People who think the blind can be healed with spit and that demons can be put into pigs are steeped in mumbo-jumbo.

There are over seventy verses in the Bible that mention magic and sorcery. You recall of course that the first to visit the newborn savior were the magi, the magicians from the east. The miracles of Jesus were accepted by most otherwise they would not have been used to win converts to the new religion.

It tells us a great deal that it seems the miracles are still accepted by most even today. We might learn a lot about the thinking of the authors of the NT by learning how those who still respond to it think. There is no difference.

Baal

figuer

If the theme of this thread is theobiology, it should refer specifically to the biology of the divine beings, like the pagan gods, the heroes, and of course Jesus.

Judea was quite Hellenized at the time of Christ, and had ample contacts with Egypt and other pagan cultures. Christianity reflects a profound pagan influence. The idea of a God-man is prevalent in Egypt. The Hebrew God and his messengers take the shape of men. The Greek gods were both spiritual and biological, an exalted form of men identified with some aspect of nature, but subject to even higher powers like fate. The idea of God the Father (Deus Pater=Jupiter, Zeus) impregnating virgins is common to Greek/Latin mythology, and produced the semidivine heroes, like Hercules, Perseus, Teseus, Eneas. Alexander the Great considered that he was the son of Zeus, which did not conflict with being the biological son of Philip: both sperms would have mixed. The Roman emperors were considered divine. Jesus being the son of God and a Virgin was entirely compatible with current believes.