Freethought & Rationalism Archive

noah · 05-03-2006, 02:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Gamera

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Originally Posted by noah

Yes. The Law was given through Moses and it is eternal and perfect and applies to everyone. Does John have authority to overwrite God's Laws? Is John a member of the Trinity? Just curious.
Jesus says two things that you and John have to deal with both of them contradict John:

1) His Law lasts forever and provides salvation, Mathew 5:17-20 Revelations 22:12 for example.

2) JC says his word lasts forever (Matt. 24:35).
That means you have to obey God's Laws. Forever means forever. There is no changing what JC says here

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So now you've not only nixed Paul and Hebrews, but John. Soon there will be no NT left, which I suspect is your agenda.

You bet. Unless of course you can offer a shred of support for any one of your claims.....

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Yep, Jesus' words will never pass away. His words were salvation through grace. What's your point?

Really? That's interesting. Please expand on this idea of yours making reference to Mathew 5:17-19, Matthew 12:50, Matthew 19:17, Matt. 24:35 , John 15:10, and John 10:30.

noah · 05-03-2006, 02:23 AM

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Gamera]

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Originally Posted by noah

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You have another problem in this refuge you think you have with John: He didn't know what he was talking about. He was factually wrong about the God he says sent JC to save everyone. I don't know which god john was referring to but it is not the god he says it was: John 3:16
God has more than one son. In fact god has many sons as Job 1:6, Psalm 82:6. Adam is the son of god Luke 3:38, David was a son of god Psalm 2:7, Solomon was a son of god 1 Chron. 17:13 and Israel/Jacob is a son of god Exo 4:22.
So you tell me which god John thinks he's talking about Gamera?
Secondly, if John can't even get this one right, why on earth would you believe he has any credibility elsewhere?

Actually the better translation of the Greek is God's unique son

Oh, Please. You talk as if you have the original manuscripts. Guess what? You don't. No one does. They don't exist. They're gone. All we have are translations of translations three or four times removed from the non-existent originals. Scholars don't agree on the right translations of many words and passages. They can't even agree on which texts should be used to get an idea of what the non-existent originals ever said. Why should I take your word for it? Why should I take your word for it when Christian scholoars disagree with you. Not only does the KJV render it differnently than you would like but so does the NIV, the NKJV, the NIRV, the ASV, the NLT and the NASB which, btw, is often criticized for being to true to the Greek and not to the English. So why should I believe you when these xian scholars disagree with you.
Second, and most obvious: I have God's word. Remember? The bible is god's inerrant word. And since no perfect and omnipotent loving God would allow his word to be distorted when the stakes are the very lives of his children, I can use any version of it I want because I know I have God's word.

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I do however want to correct any misrepresentations you make about the actual text. So that's where my comments are directed.

Please let me know when you're about to begin.

noah · 05-03-2006, 02:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Gamera

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Originally Posted by noah
4) God's Laws, the Laws JC upholds, are the duty of man - not faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice
Eccl 12:13

Your move.

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Here's the whole quote:

13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Now, if you're claiming you have no secrets and done no evil, you can rely on the law. The rest of us mortals have to rely not on our ability to perform our duty, but on God's mercy. My God is a God of love and mercy, not a God of judgment. Because I'm honest enough to admit that if God judges me based on my conduct, I'm doomed. Are you honest enough, or are you actually going to tell us you've earned salvation by never doing anything evil?
C'mon, dish.

Total cop-out. You haven't even tried. Doing the Law protects you from evil.
God expects you will not perfectly obey his Laws. He only wants your honest effort.
BTW, you don't get to choose your god. Not if you want to be biblical. If you want another god, get another bible.
Oh, and just so you know JC himself says he will judge each of you according to your works. Remember Rev. 22:12?
Don't forget Mathew 5:17-19:

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17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The commands of JC last forever:

Matthew 24:35

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Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

John123 · 05-03-2006, 05:05 AM

how has the crucifixion of jesus rescued any christian? look at the state of christian countries.look at the way they boast about how they are "saved" and how everyone else is going to burn in hell.

John123 · 05-03-2006, 05:06 AM

here is a good interpretation of the christian belief

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God, in His infinite wisdom, created us with the capacity to sin and knowing full well that we would sin He created no mechanism through which we could free ourselves of that sin. Forgiveness is apparently impossible and God has to send everyone to hell to burn forever because we are all sinners. What a dilemma. God loves us everyone so whatever is He to do to rectify the situation? Perhaps He has a Son, who is Himself, to send to earth. There God would be delivered as a baby, presumably have his diaper changed until he was old enough to be potty trained and then when he grew up He would wander around for a couple of decades or so before delivering a few sermons and then have Himself killed. He had to have Himself killed to wash away the sin of those who are just dim-witted enough to accept such a ludicrous scheme. Being God, He didn't actually die but those who accept His "death and sacrifice" are ushered into His good graces and blessed with the Holy Spirit though it seems to do them no good at all and they go on sinning the same as before. However, those sins are not held against them since they believe God killed Himself for their sake. Its enough to make one want to praise Jesus and weep tears of joy, is it not?

n8sense · 05-03-2006, 06:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Gamera

Sure you do. If you can "prove" scripture is inspired by God, then there is no need for faith. You got proof. Of course your whole argument is silly from the start there is no apodictic proof of "inspiration" and cannot be. Just rhetoric on your point against Paul, which ironically circles back against the Law.

Go ahead, prove to me the Law is inspired.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the OT Law of God was NOT inspired? I guess I haven't been paying attention. I thought the whole Babble, er, Bible was the inspired, inerrant word of god.

Gamera · 05-03-2006, 08:45 PM

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Originally Posted by n8sense

Are you seriously trying to argue that the OT Law of God was NOT inspired? I guess I haven't been paying attention. I thought the whole Babble, er, Bible was the inspired, inerrant word of god.

As a Christian I believe that the bible is inspired (not inerrant, which is a wierd doctrine that arose in the 19th century and has nothing to do with historical Christianity). However that's not a provable position, so for noah to say he thinks the OT is inspired, but Paul's letters aren't because I can't prove they are has an illogic to it that I leave you to contemplate.

In any case, don't call on me to prove the bible is true. If I could faith would be useless and ironically the bible woudl be untrue.

Gamera · 05-03-2006, 08:57 PM

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Originally Posted by noah

You bet. Unless of course you can offer a shred of support for any one of your claims.....

The claims that the plain language of the NT means what it say. Res ipse loquitur.

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Really? That's interesting. Please expand on this idea of yours making reference to Mathew 5:17-19, Matthew 12:50, Matthew 19:17, Matt. 24:35 , John 15:10, and John 10:30.

with pleasure.
One at a time:

17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 21

Obviously the law isn't perfect since Jesus says he has to fulfill it. The Law will never pass away since those who don't accept grace are under the condmenation of the Law and shall never be reconciled with God. Hence the need for grace and Jesus' sacrifice. Anybody who RELAXES the law, ie doesn't live up to it, will be judged; but of course under grace we have a higher standard than the law. It requires us to love others and surpass the letter of the law.

Read on to Matthew 5:21 - 47. Jesus give one example after another of how those who claim to follow the law are hypocrites and how he is establishing a higher standard.

Thus, the law requires you not to kill another. but Jesus requires you not to hate anybody.

The law requires you not to commit adultery, but Jesus requires not even to think lustful thoughts about a married woman.

The law allows for divorce; Jesus forbids it.

The law says an eye for an eye; Jesus says love your enemy.

You just can't win this one, noah, if you bother to keep reading what Jesus actually says

Gamera · 05-03-2006, 09:01 PM

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Originally Posted by noah

<edit> Putting words in my mouth and trying to falsely re frame the issue gets you nowhere. I never changed topics and you know it. That quote from me that you posted here was dealing directly with the issue of whether Paul was even inspired. I said he was probably not inspired and gave three proofs using Paul's own words to prove my point.

Now, Jesus does not rebut my claim. Jesus says that the Law was there for the hardness of your hearts which makes very little sense to me.
Since you don't seem to get waht it is I'm saying I will repeat my point. The Bible and your God say his Law is perfect. Not me.
And if you're trying to argue here that you xians are all a bunch of softies and full of love and that's why you get to disobey your God's Laws, think again. You only have to read the paper or turn on the news to see so-called xians committing crimes against their fellow men.

I think you've been hanging around too many religious rightwingers. Christianity 101 teaches the Law is defunct (thank God!), and this it is not perfect and never was. See Hebrews.

Inerrancy is not a idea of historical Christianity, but a weird diversion of late 19th century fundamentalism, that is at odds with the gospel.

But we're getting somewhere; at least you admit the Law isn't perfect. That's a start.

Apikorus · 05-03-2006, 10:05 PM

Religious Jews have no trouble believing that the Law (torah) is perfect. Jesus himself seemed to think that the Law would stand, although I think we really can't be too sure of what Jesus said or thought based on the gospel hagiographies. The real innovator and inventor of Christianity was Paul, who universalized the God of the Hebrew Bible and dispensed with the Law for gentiles. As circumcision and dietary law would likely be received by them as burdensome, this was a great marketing strategy. The rest, as they say, is history.

05-03-2006, 05:05 AM	#84
John123 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: u.s.a Posts: 18	law how has the crucifixion of jesus rescued any christian? look at the state of christian countries.look at the way they boast about how they are "saved" and how everyone else is going to burn in hell.

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05-03-2006, 10:05 PM	#90
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	Religious Jews have no trouble believing that the Law (torah) is perfect. Jesus himself seemed to think that the Law would stand, although I think we really can't be too sure of what Jesus said or thought based on the gospel hagiographies. The real innovator and inventor of Christianity was Paul, who universalized the God of the Hebrew Bible and dispensed with the Law for gentiles. As circumcision and dietary law would likely be received by them as burdensome, this was a great marketing strategy. The rest, as they say, is history.

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