Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 08-10-2012, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

key word some scholars claim for a myth. this amounts to a very very small amount of scholars, with really only Robert Price making a decent case which I surely dont see as credible and doesnt really stand up to the work done by Crossan, Ehrman, or Reed

Please, you don't know what you are talking about. Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist?" is a disaster. You REJECT Ehrman's Obscure Jesus of Nazareth and claim your Jesus did NOT pay his taxes.

jdboy · 08-10-2012, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

In the chapter called Faith and Life of Christians we see moralisms that are also found in the gospels, but this can simply mean that they were floating around before they ended up in the canonical gospels. After all, for a fellow who knew about that lost archive census he couldn't name a single apostle who had memoirs or even the name of his Old Man or where that Old Man learned of the Christ, etc.

Second century? I doubt it.

Again, it does NOT make much sense for 4TH century writings to claim Justin found out about Jesus by an old man and that Justin did NOT know of the four gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings.

Anyone familiar with 4th century apologetic sources will easily identify that Justin's writings is NOT compatible with that time period.

We know that Justin did NOT have the four gospels simply because he did NOT mention them and apologetic sources which used Justin did NOT claim he was aware of the four Gospels.

Justin Martyr specifically stated that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles that was read in the Churches on Sundays. See "First Apology".

No apologetic source even acknowledged that a source called the Memoirs of the Apostles existed and was used in the churches.

Justin appears to think of the memoirs as gospels
From apology 1 ch66
"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,

Dave31 · 08-10-2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

bud, all you have shown is that you can take credible people out of context to meet your personal agenda

LOL, make it up however you need to to make yourself feel better, but from where I stand I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Quote:

"Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic"

F.F. Bruce, a founder of the modern evangelical movement

- Who Was Jesus? 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

scanty and problematic is not a absense of evidence

LOL, this is about the best we can expect from Christians, but, an absence of credible evidence is precisely what we have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

"claiming there are a few sources"

is not a absense of evidence

Again, an absence of CREDIBLE evidence is exactly what we have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

your posting childsplay here bud

The fact remains that your claims about Paul were demonstrably wrong. I suppose that's why you've gone with these distractions to avoid having to acknowledge that issue.

Quote:

"The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…"

The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

key word some scholars claim for a myth. this amounts to a very very small amount of scholars, with really only Robert Price making a decent case which I surely dont see as credible and doesnt really stand up to the work done by Crossan, Ehrman, or Reed

Bart Ehrman has completely ruined his own credibility and reliability with his latest book, 'Did Jesus Exist' and here are over 60 responses proving it.

Dave31 · 08-10-2012, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Justin appears to think of the memoirs as gospels
From apology 1 ch66
"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,

No, he does not as the 'memoirs' and the gospels as we have them today have nothing to do with each other and Justin never heard of the canonical gospels by Mark, Matthew, Luke & John:

Quote:

Remsburg remarks:

The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Church Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels, had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels. Rev. Giles says: "The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are never mentioned by him (Justin)—do not occur once in all his writings."

- Does early Church father Justin Martyr quote the gospels?

aa5874 · 08-10-2012, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Justin appears to think of the memoirs as gospels
From apology 1 ch66
"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,

The Memoirs of the Apostles contained information NOT found in the Four Canonised Gospels. In the Memoirs Jesus was born in a CAVE outside a village. The Cave story is confirmed by Origen.

Examine "Dialogue with Trypho" attributed to Justin.

Dialogue with Trypho

Quote:

But when the Child was born in Bethlehem, since Joseph could not find a lodging in that village, he took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village; and while they were there Mary brought forth the Christ and placed Him in a manger, and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him...

Now examine "Against Celsus" atributed to Origen.

Against Celsus 51

Quote:

...With respect to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, if any one desires, after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources, let him know that, in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth, there is shown at Bethlehem the cave where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling-clothes...

It would appear the Memoirs of the Apostles was another version or an earlier version of the Jesus story WITHOUT any specific named author.

The supposed first mention of FOUR named authors was Irenaeus in "Against Heresies" who wrote AFTER Justin Martyr.

jdboy · 08-11-2012, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Justin appears to think of the memoirs as gospels
From apology 1 ch66
"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,

The Memoirs of the Apostles contained information NOT found in the Four Canonised Gospels. In the Memoirs Jesus was born in a CAVE outside a village. The Cave story is confirmed by Origen.

Examine "Dialogue with Trypho" attributed to Justin.

Dialogue with Trypho

Now examine "Against Celsus" atributed to Origen.

Against Celsus 51

Quote:

...With respect to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, if any one desires, after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources, let him know that, in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth, there is shown at Bethlehem the cave where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling-clothes...

It would appear the Memoirs of the Apostles was another version or an earlier version of the Jesus story WITHOUT any specific named author.

The supposed first mention of FOUR named authors was Irenaeus in "Against Heresies" who wrote AFTER Justin Martyr.

It looks like Marcion was writing at the time of Justin. Marcion's work was considered heretical. The Cannon must have been in place as Marcion specifically disagreed with the gospel of Matt.

"Marcion is said to have asked the Roman presbyters the explanation of Matthew 9:16-17, which he evidently wished to understand as expressing the incompatibility of the New Testament with the Old, but which they interpreted in an orthodox sense. His final breach with the Roman Church occurred in the autumn of 144, for the Marcionites counted 115 years and 6 months from the time of Christ to the beginning of their sect."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm

aa5874 · 08-11-2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

It looks like Marcion was writing at the time of Justin. Marcion's work was considered heretical. The Cannon must have been in place as Marcion specifically disagreed with the gospel of Matt....

Justin Martyr was a contemporary of Marcion. See First Apology.

Quote:

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator.

Marcion did NOT use the Pauline writings--he used the writings of Empedocles. See "Refutation of All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus.

Quote:

The principal heresy of Marcion, and (the one of his) which is most free from admixture (with other heresies), is that which has its system formed out of the theory concerning the good and bad (God). Now this, it has been manifested by us, belongs to Empedocles.

There are Multiple Apologetic sources that Contradict Tertullian's "Against Marcion".

Duvduv · 08-11-2012, 07:14 PM

The trouble with this discussion, as is usually the case, is that the claims regarding Marcion are taken at face value from biased church sponsored sources. Period.
For all the sand castle building about "Justin" being in the same time period (AND CITY) as Marcion, almost no one bothers to note that "Justin" never mentions the alleged texts held by Marcion or his followers, or any writings composed of Marcion, or whether Marcion was part of the "community" that "Justin" was appealing for to the emperor.

One would assume that if they were in the same neighborhood this Justin would have SOMETHING significant to say about the Christian texts owned by this Marcion. People pontificate about Marcion's "gospel" or his epistles, and yet no one bothers to mention that this Justin never identifies a single text. Now doesn't it stand to reason that if MARCION knew about epistles of Paul or a specific gospel at odds with the gospel(s) of the Orthodox that this Justin would know SOMETHING about them, at least to dispute the authenticity of texts held by his bogeyman?!

The fact is that beyond repeated hearsay of his opponents with an ax to grind as officially sponsored church propagandists, nothing is known about this fellow Marcion at all, and what is CLAIMED about him is hopelessly confused.

aa5874 · 08-11-2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The trouble with this discussion, as is usually the case, is that the claims regarding Marcion are taken at face value from biased church sponsored sources. Period...

No, No, No!!!!

It is you who PRESUME all writings about Marcion are sponsored by the Church.

Any writings that show that there was a Jesus cult of Christians before the 4th century will be PRESUMED to be biased by you.

Please, tell us why you accept the Biased Church Sponsored writings of the 4th century???

Duvduv · 08-12-2012, 08:31 AM

The brand new regime following Constantine and his chi-rho religion was in the 4th century. That's were things started developing, including the heresiologist industry. They didn't necessarily emerge out of thin air but what developed was by the end of the 4th century and into the 5th were new.

Besides, the second-century Justin supposedly lived in the same town and at the same time as Marcion and yet does not indicate a single text either possessed or written by Marcion. Surely, if Marcion had epistles of "Paul" a second-century Justin would have heard about it. But he didn't........

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08-11-2012, 07:14 PM	#108
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The trouble with this discussion, as is usually the case, is that the claims regarding Marcion are taken at face value from biased church sponsored sources. Period. For all the sand castle building about "Justin" being in the same time period (AND CITY) as Marcion, almost no one bothers to note that "Justin" never mentions the alleged texts held by Marcion or his followers, or any writings composed of Marcion, or whether Marcion was part of the "community" that "Justin" was appealing for to the emperor. One would assume that if they were in the same neighborhood this Justin would have SOMETHING significant to say about the Christian texts owned by this Marcion. People pontificate about Marcion's "gospel" or his epistles, and yet no one bothers to mention that this Justin never identifies a single text. Now doesn't it stand to reason that if MARCION knew about epistles of Paul or a specific gospel at odds with the gospel(s) of the Orthodox that this Justin would know SOMETHING about them, at least to dispute the authenticity of texts held by his bogeyman?! The fact is that beyond repeated hearsay of his opponents with an ax to grind as officially sponsored church propagandists, nothing is known about this fellow Marcion at all, and what is CLAIMED about him is hopelessly confused.

08-12-2012, 08:31 AM	#110
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The brand new regime following Constantine and his chi-rho religion was in the 4th century. That's were things started developing, including the heresiologist industry. They didn't necessarily emerge out of thin air but what developed was by the end of the 4th century and into the 5th were new. Besides, the second-century Justin supposedly lived in the same town and at the same time as Marcion and yet does not indicate a single text either possessed or written by Marcion. Surely, if Marcion had epistles of "Paul" a second-century Justin would have heard about it. But he didn't........

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