Freethought & Rationalism Archive

S.C.Carlson · 10-01-2008, 02:35 PM

Richard Carrier just has a new blogpost up, called Ignatian Vexation. Here's a sample:

Quote:

Last entry here I already mentioned one of the issues that came up: my stumbling into several muddles in New Testament studies that I thought had been reasonably resolved by now. Many issues I thought were cut-and-dried are actually mired in complexity, and my research in these areas has absorbed far more time than it should have. The two most annoying examples of this (though not the only ones) are in dating the contents of the New Testament and identifying their authorship and editorial history.

Lots of vexations about dating Ignatius and whether he knows the gospel of Matthew. All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."

Stephen

andrewcriddle · 10-01-2008, 03:23 PM

IMHO the situation may be in some ways worse than Richard Carrier realises. A minority of scholars have dated the letters of Ignatius to the reign of Hadrian rather than Trajan. (IMVHO they are right.)

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson · 10-01-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IMHO the situation may be in some ways worse than Richard Carrier realises. A minority of scholars have dated the letters of Ignatius to the reign of Hadrian rather than Trajan. (IMVHO they are right.)

Andrew Criddle

Andrew,

Can you send me the bibliographic info on these folks? I'm exloring some ideas about the lateness of Matthew and I'd like to see what they have to say.

Jeffrey

Ben C Smith · 10-01-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."

Every so often I dip very informally into the field of biology (common descent and such) just for the sake of interest. The last couple of weeks or so has been one of those times. I am always rendered absolutely jealous at how much evidence scientists have to work with compared to historians, and how frequently they are able to produce even more evidence via clever experimentation and data collection, whereas historians get only so many Qumrans.

I agree; it is a swamp.

Ben.

S.C.Carlson · 10-01-2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Can you send me the bibliographic info on these folks? I'm exloring some ideas about the lateness of Matthew and I'd like to see what they have to say.

I'd like to see this too.

Stephen

Steven Carr · 10-01-2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."

Every so often I dip very informally into the field of biology (common descent and such) just for the sake of interest. The last couple of weeks or so has been one of those times. I am always rendered absolutely jealous at how much evidence scientists have to work with compared to historians, and how frequently they are able to produce even more evidence via clever experimentation and data collection, whereas historians get only so many Qumrans.

I agree; it is a swamp.

Ben.

If only the angel at the tomb of Jesus had hung around a bit longer and told many more people, rather than just telling a few people that it knew would not be considered credible witnesses, then we would have clear evidence , rather than a swamp.

Still, I imagine angels have more pressing business than announcing the resurrection of Jesus to more than a couple of people.

If there were a god, the evidence would be a lot clearer, would it not?

aa5874 · 10-01-2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Lots of vexations about dating Ignatius and whether he knows the gospel of Matthew. All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."

Stephen

To the casual reader the NT may appear to be a swamp, but with time and careful observation the swamp will disappear and a clear case of deliberate errors will emerge.

Ted Hoffman · 10-01-2008, 11:56 PM

Sounds like he is doing a good job and will certainly come up with something pretty educational.

youngalexander · 10-02-2008, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

If there were a god, the evidence would be a lot clearer, would it not?

Nah, these gods like to keep the 'evidence' obscure. Much more tantalising that way, and the priests make a good living.

I found Carrier's description of Ignatian's peregrinations hilarious.

Ben C Smith · 10-02-2008, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

If there were a god, the evidence would be a lot clearer, would it not?

Maybe, maybe not. How much do we know about gods?

Ben.

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10-01-2008, 03:23 PM	#2
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	IMHO the situation may be in some ways worse than Richard Carrier realises. A minority of scholars have dated the letters of Ignatius to the reign of Hadrian rather than Trajan. (IMVHO they are right.) Andrew Criddle

10-01-2008, 11:56 PM	#8
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Sounds like he is doing a good job and will certainly come up with something pretty educational.

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