PhilosopherJay

Hi Spin,

I prefer to ignor personal attacks because they disrupt discussion of real issues and get people sidetracked discussing personal side issues. If someone does not know "X", it generally takes as much time to tell them what "X" is, as to tell them that they do not know "X". I prefer people to tell me what "X" is, instead of telling me that I do not know what "X" is. If their arguments are substantive, I am quite happy to admit my errors and ignorance (30+ years of studying Philosophy will put you in that state).

Thank you for the link to Liddle and Scott's definition, Please note Liddle and Scott's definition:

A. upright pale or stake, staurous ektos elasse diamperes entha kai entha puknous kai thameas Od.14.11 , cf. Il.24.453, Th.4.90, X. An.5.2.21; of piles driven in to serve as a foundation, Hdt.5.16, Th.7.25.

II. cross, as the instrument of crucifixion, D.S.2.18, Ev.Matt.27.40, Plu.2.554a; epi ton s. apagesthai Luc.Peregr.34 ; s. lambanein, arai, bastazein, metaph. of voluntary suffering, Ev.Matt.10.38, Ev.Luc.9.23, 14.27: its form was represented by the Greek letter T, Luc.Jud.Voc.12. b. pale for impaling a corpse, Plu.Art.17

So Liddle and Scott agree with Strong that there are metaphorical uses of the term. The question is, "Was Paul speaking literally or metaphorically when he used stavros?" I have already mentioned modern Christian witnesses to that affect in my last post. Here are some ancient ones.

Tertullian is a witness that Paul at least sometimes spoke metaphorically when using the term (against Marcion (5.4):

Moreover, "the world is crucified unto me," who am a servant of the Creator--"the world," (I say,) but not the God who made the world--"and I unto the world," not unto the God who made the world. The world, in the apostle's sense, here means life and conversation according to worldly principles; it is in renouncing these that we and they are mutually crucified and mutually slain.

For Tertullian, Paul meant a renounciation of "life and conversation according to worldly principles," not a literal crucifixion.

Clement of Alexandria finds the same metaphorical usage (Stromata 4:3):

As slaves the Scripture views those "under sin" and "sold to sin," the lovers of pleasure and of the body; and beasts rather than men, "those who have become like to cattle, horses, neighing after their neighbours' wives."[6] The licentious is "the lustful ass," the covetous is the "savage wolf," and the deceiver is "a serpent." The severance, therefore, of the soul from the body, made a life- long study, produces in the philosopher gnostic alacrity, so that he is easily able to bear natural death, which is the dissolution of the chains which bind the soul to the body. "For the world is crucified to me, and I to the world," the [apostle] says; "and now I live, though in the flesh, as having my conversation in heaven."[7]

Being crucified is simply the severance of soul and body, something the philosopher does. This may be related to the Stoic Epictetus' use of the term:

Epictetus, Works disc, book 2, chapter 2 ed. Thomas Wentworth Higginson, in English
Be content not to entreat; yet do not proclaim that you will not entreat; unless it be a proper time to provoke the judges designedly, as in the case of Socrates. But if you too are preparing such a speech as his, what do you wait for? Why do you consent to be tried? For if you wish to be hanged, have patience, and the gibbet will come. ei gar staurôthênai theleis, ekdexai kai hêxei ho stauros: (4.04)

Epictetus is here talking about the death of Socrates which certainly did not take place by crucifixion or hanging, yet he uses the term "staurothenai" and "stauros". So he is using the term metaphorically too, to mean something like "extinguishing the passions".

Here are some sample literal uses of stavros during the period. These are literal, but note that in these cases, the term does not mean "cross" but stave, stake or stockard:

Xenophon, Anabasis book 7, chapter 4, section 17 [17] Then the Thracians took to flight, swinging their shields around behind them, as was their custom; and some of them who tried to jump over the palings staurous were captured hanging in the air, kai autôn huperallomenôn tous staurous elêphthêsan tines kremasthentes enechomenôn tôn peltôn tois staurois: (7.09)

Pausanias, Description of Greece book 1, chapter 13, section 6The citizens prepared for a siege, and Sparta even before this in the war with Demetrius had been fortified with deep trenches and strong stakes, and at the most vulnerable points with buildings as well. hoi de es poliorkian eutrepizonto, proteron eti tês Spartês epi tou polemou tou pros Dêmêtrion taphrois te batheiais kai staurois teteichismenês ischurois, ta de epimachôtata kai oikodomêmasin. (1.38)

climbed and killed the Athenians who thought that they understood the oracle2 better than Pausanias, Description of Greece book 1, chapter 18, section 2did Themistocles, and fortified the Acropolis with logs and stakes.3kata touto epanabantes Mêdoi katephoneusan Athênaiôn tous pleon ti es ton chrêsmon ê Themistoklês eidenai nomizontas kai tên akropolin xulois kai staurois apoteichisantas. (1.68)


Pausanias, Description of Greece book 4, chapter 7, section 6 So at daybreak the Lacedaemonians realized the forethought of Euphaes. They had no means of fighting the Messenians unless they came out from the stockade, and despaired of forming a siege, for which they were unprepared in all things alike. en> hosôi de houtoi sunestêkasin, en tosoutôi tous oiketas ekeleuen ho Euphaês prôta men ta kata nôton tou stratopedou phraxasthai tois staurois, meta de ta pleura amphotera. (1.13)

Thus a) Paul sometimes uses the term "stavros" metaphorically, b) In ancient literature outside of and before the gospels, the term "stavros" does not generally or necessarily refer to the type of execution that the character Jesus of the Gospels is generally understood to have undergone. The conclusion to be drawn from this is that the epistle writer/s may not have been using the terms "cross" and "crucifixion" in the common-sense way that we now think of them -- as the Roman style of execution of rebels, slaves and the Christ.


Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

spin

As I explained, it wasn't a personal attack. You (and many others) need to know that philology and linguistics require an understanding of the issues which comes with coherent study. This is true with any discipline. Ad hoc forays will not help to get a better understanding of them.

And as we are both trying to deal with the issue of what the words stauros and staurow mean to Paul there is no disruption of discussion.

Yes, Jay, as I said, "we all use metaphors without needing to redefine words". Metaphors don't change the meaning of the word as you desired to do.

Yup, you've already noted that Paul used it metaphorically in Gal 6:14 in your first post, so external support was not necessary for that (though it should be noted that Tertullian, writing in Latin, used "crux" -- literally "cross" -- for stauros and had no problems using it literally for Jesus). It is, as I said, evident from the context. "The world is crucified..." How do you crucify the world, Jay?

(And we were discussing the use of stauros to equate to "cross" or some other more philosophically oriented definition. That it also meant "stake" is not under discussion.)

You've come along from post #9, Jay. If you say, "Paul sometimes uses the term "stavros" metaphorically", then you accept that he sometimes didn't. The next step is to be able to distinguish when he might have used it metaphorically. But then the one example that we can both point to says, "The world is crucified...". Metaphorical usage cannot get more obvious: a verb which requires a human subject finds itself with an abstract concept as subject. The lightbulb flashes, "metaphor"! Where else do you find that lightbulb flashing in Paul's use of stauros and staurow, Jay? The only way you'll tell is through context the word is found in. Let me end by truly perverting Newton's first law: words tend to mean what they normally mean and will continue to tend to mean what they normally mean, unless acted upon by an altering contextual force.

And I'll leave it at that.


spin

PhilosopherJay

Hi Spin,

We agree that Pauline epistle writer/s used "σταυρος" (cross) and "εσταυρωθη" (crucified) metaphorically sometimes. The next thing is to distinguish these uses to literal ones to see if the text is talking about the gospels' execution of Jesus of Nazareth or using the terms to refer to something else.

The text has the two terms exactly 22 times, each 11 times. Here are the 11 cases within the Pauline Epistles where we find the word "cross" translated and 11 cases where we find the word "crucified/crucify

1. 1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

2. 1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

3. Galatians 5:11
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.

4. Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

5. Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

6. Ephesians 2:16
and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

7. Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

8. Philippians 3:18
For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

9. Colossians 1:20
and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

10. Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

11. Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

****

1. Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

2. 1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

3. 1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

4. 1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

5. 1 Corinthians 2:8
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

6. 2 Corinthians 13:4
For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

7. Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

8. Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

9. Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

10. Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

11. Hebrews 6:6
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
***

It appears to me that he is using both terms "stavros" and "estavrothi" loosely and metaphorically on a consistent basis. They seem to be referring to something disgraceful or shameful in just about all the uses.

The texts seems to me to be referring to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 rather than the Jesus character of the gospels.


53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
53:11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay