mountainman

The non canonical NT literature is not perceived as ascetic pagan sedition and polemic against the canonical characters of Jesus and the Apostles because the bias has always been "we are looking at the texts of unknown christians", and not "we are looking at some texts" and "we dont know who wrote them".

When seditious political undercurrents perceived in the fourth century "Acts of Philip" set in Carthage, are recognised in all the apocrypha, ancient historians who have no "christian bias" will begin to understand that the chronology of the entire apocryphal NT literature is easily explained as a massive reaction by the ascetic priesthood against the dispossession of their
religious heritage by the Canon religion of Constantine from 324 CE.

Another thread not yet articulated at this stage will be that of the supposed "desert communities of christian ascetics" in the fourth century. These people were "made christian" by Jerome and others. These people, such as Pachomius, felt a great need to flee Constantine's civilisation in 324 CE, and to establish monastic settlements in upper Egypt, far from Alexandria. Within a few decades many thousand had retired there.

Rich citizens, exploited by the tax and the church, gave away their lands and possessions to live in desert monasteries. They were fleeing the despotism of the christian emperors and their tax-exempt "bishops".

In the category four class of authors after Nicaea, are many ascetics, such as the fourt Tall Brothers -- related to the Origenist controversy, caused by Eusebius forging Origen's New Testament commentaries when Origen had only ever written about the Hebrew Bible. The category three christians after Nicaea wrote the history since they were the VICTORS.

We are only just now attempting to evaluate the other side to the history they presented as being true. It is no place for bias, and everywhere depends upon objective assessment of the data.

Best wishes



Pete Brown

andrewcriddle

Possibly the House Church at Dura-Europus which was abandoned in 257.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos , and threads on this forum, and http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2...scription.html

Andrew Criddle

Doug Shaver

No, I meant what I wrote, but you answered the question when you said you didn't need any evidence.

Doug Shaver

I don't think my criteria are idiosyncratic. If you'll suggest something that you think is a fact and that, if a fact, would be inconsistent with the pre-Nicene existence of Christianity, then we can discuss it and I'll accept the risk of being accused of special pleading.

In this context, I'm not defending any particular version of the Christian story. All I am saying is that the religion existed in some form during the first century. Last time I checked, that is not contradicted by anything generally accepted as true by the historical community -- Christian, atheist, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, humanist, communist, or whatever.

Amaleq13

No, and this was already been explained in another thread but cherished claims can be difficult to drop even when they are shown to be unreliable or false. The word used in the Christian Bible is the same one Josephus and others used to describe the same means of execution.

patcleaver

This has all been exposed numerous times, for example:

see Forgery In Christianity By Joseph Wheless, http://www.infidels.org/library/hist..._christianity/

see Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Bart D. Ehrman

If you google (the-gods Elohim genesis) then you get 54,000 hits. Many of them complain about intentional mistranslations in the Bible.

Preachers are not going to tell their flocks. You are not going to hear about this in CCD class. You can't teach children this in public schools. Almost all religious reporters of newspapers and magazines are Christians, and if their not then they are working for Christians.

Apologists have excuses for this stuff just like they have excuses for all the obvious contradictions, sex and violence in the old testament.

Toto

Elohim is a plural form, but it is paired with a singular verb. The Hebrew Scriptures are pretty consistent in this - Elohim is used to refer to one god, sort of like the "royal we." There are more persuasive references to polytheism than this point in the HS - you weaken your case by pointing to this.

patcleaver

Yes its the same word that is used by Josephus and others to describe hanging someone on a pole or impaling someone to the ground, which is a lot easier than using a tau cross.

If you have a reference that indicates that the pole was used to mean a tau cross then please provide it. Then we can discuss how likely it is that it was a later interpolation or forgery.

mountainman

That Dura Europa represents a citation as not a christian church,
nor yet a christian church-house, but in fact a christian house-church
is strictly reliant upon the appreciation of a number of murals.

The art work has been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseum. That the artwork is the output of christian hand is totally unsubstantiated. Have a look at the images on the net. Have a look at the evidence.

Best wishes


Pete Brown

Amaleq13

Josephus tells us they were "nailed" and Seneca the Younger tells us that one of the positions included the use of a crossbar upon which the victim's arms were outstretched. The Epistle of Barnabas explicitly compares the position of Jesus to the letter "tau".

You've already been shown the evidence before and, apparently, chose to ignore it just as you did the questions asked of you and the book reference offered to you.