aa5874

Well, I HAVE considered what you wrote and found it extremely unlikely. You have failed to show that the story of the crucifixion with the two thieves is even possible as described by the author of gMark.

I must take into account how Jesus himself was described in gMark and use OTHER books on the NT Canon to determine if the story of the crucifixion is possibly or probably.

All the written sources that I have seen so far SUPPORT that the crucifixion story with the thieves is most likely fiction.

Vivisector

Jiri, can you clarify what you mean by "pre-church?"

Cheers,

V.

Vorkosigan

Hey Solo, do you think the two robbers are Mark's answer/reminder of the request of James and John in Mk 10 to sit at his right and left hand when he comes into power?

Perhaps Mark is saying: this is what it means to sit at Jesus right and left hand, following Paul's them of being crucified with Christ as noted in the post above.

Vorkosigan

Solo

Bingo, Michael !

....but to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared !


....so for whom have the two crosses been prepared ?

clue for "robber" is Mk 14:48; the two guys keeping Jesus company would be a similar kind.

Best,
Jiri

Solo

There was no single Christian church in Mark's time. There were Paul's communities who worshipped the crucified Christ; there were Thomasians, and there were Nazoreans/Nazarenes some of whom invoked Yeshua (Jesus) as martyr of the last days who became a high priest in heaven and intercessor for the coming Messiah (not himself). I don't think there were significant other Jesus groups at ~70CE. Because of the war and the numerical strength of the three communities (Phariseic mainstream Pauline groups, Nazoreans) in near Diaspora, the Nazoreans probably started to move toward the Pauline proto-Christian position proclaiming Jesus as Davidic Messiah who would return (to earth). All three would be proselytizing heavily in each other territory.

Jiri

Vivisector

Much clearer to me now - thank you.

Cheers,

V.

aa5874

You are MERELY speculating and cannot show how your post relates to the TWO thieves.

The Pauline writers did NOT mention anywhere at all that Jesus was crucified with two thieves.

You have taken the Pauline writings COMPLETELY out-of-context.

The very criteria used to show or deduce that the author of MATTHEW copied gMark SHOW that the author of gMark did NOT use the Pauline writings at all.

Not even a single word for word sentence in gMark can be found in the Pauline writings and ALL the details of events surrounding Jesus in gMark are NOT anywhere in the Pauline writings.

If you cannot find a credible EXTERNAL source for the TWO thieves in gMark then it is pointless in Speculating.

The stories of the TWO thieves keep changing from Gospel to Gospel so why have you ASSUMED you KNOW the POSSIBLY true story when it could ALL BE EMBELLISHMENTS?

Solo

The New Oxford Dictionary of English

allegory, noun (pl.-ies)
a story, a poem, a picture which can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one:
Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey.

Ok, imagine yourself a member of a 1st century community which reveres Paul and considers his letters magical as the group believes they have the power cure demonic possession. They have some great successes with it. A group of Jewish believers in another Jesus (basically people that Paul fought with in the Galatians) approaches
you and asks you to send them the gospel of Paul, so they may believe in Christ the way he did. You don't trust their motives. You are a Pauline and they are idolators of a flesh-and-blood Jesus who was executed under the very law which they proclaim as the only way to God. You know they want to use Paul's letters to convert your folks to their Jesus form of worship.

What would you do ? Tell them to go away, right ?

The thing is though, you yourself want to convert them to become Christians. You want to hypnotize them with Paul's doctrine of their Jesus as the Risen Lord. Right ?

So, imagine you are very, very smart and write up a story of Jesus as Paul's Lord Jesus Christ as if he came down to earth. You would write it as an allegory in such a gripping way, so even idiots in the other camp would be immediately drawn to it and become obssessed with yourJesus, even if they hate Paul.

You say it's impossible ? You say you don't have to imagine anything I tell you ?

You proved my point.

Jiri

aa5874

There you go again with your IMAGINATION. I no LONGER want to IMAGINE anything. I want you to PRODUCE Credible sources of antiquity for the story of the TWO THIEVES that you IMAGINE were ROBBERS.

Again, why do you IMAGINE that Jesus was crucified if the NT may be ALLEGORIES?

To RESOLVE the issue, I will ACCEPT the NT stories as ALLEGORIES until you PROVIDE some historical sources of antiquity to show that they are NOT.

Based on what I have read so far, Jesus of the NT was ALLEGORICALLY crucified with TWO thieves.

Solo

aa0000, I knew you were going to tell me that - seen this some place ? :

How did I know that ? Am I some kind of a psychic ?
How could I have predicted your reaction, and that your seeing what I wrote ("you prove my point") still would not manage to resist the compulsion to fulfil my prediction ?

But it's really not a trick : I just wanted to illustrate to you what Mark was doing with 7:36 :
....Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about itI owe you nothing, aa0000. You can demand all you want, capitalize all you want, climb walls if you want. You'll get nothing out of me other than my grasp of the Jesus persona. All I can tell you is this: you will be cured of your obsession with Jesus, if you manage to cry your eyes out for the poor bugger. I can promise you that. He might even show you his mysteries. I can't promise you that but I know he has predilection for people who can't get a life because they are seeking him in earnest and without ulterior motives (speaking figuratively).

I guess it is for the same reason that when I get a phone call which starts with a siren of a cruise ship and and excited voice following and saying "Congratulations, you are a lucky winner of a cruise to the Bahames....", I know it's not quite the reality of what is being offered.

I don't take what is being said literally, nor would I call back and make the marketers a scene, screaming at them (that's what you do when you capitalize !) that they are telling lies. Why not ? Because I have better things to do.

I will not provide you with any historical sources, because we are agreed now that the gospels are an allegory. Why would I argue with myself ? Why do I need to argue at all ?

Jiri