Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RED DAVE · 05-08-2007, 12:55 AM

From Larsguy47:

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There might not be evidence in the whilderness left

No "might not be"; the proper term is: "is no."

From Larsguy47:

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but there is circumstantial evidence of the plague and the death of Amenhotep III in the Red Sea.

You are talking about the death of all the Egyptian cattle and all their first-born children. There is no evidence, cricumstantial or otherwise for this. The stuff about Amenhotep and the Red Sea is nonsense.

From Larsguy47:

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And there is evidence of the Jewish empire at its height when Shishak made his invasion, and confirmations of many of the Judean and Israel kings from then on down through the Neo-Babylonian Period.

Irrelevent.

From Larsguy47:

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So it's just trying to find those lost panties one of the Israelities accidentally lost, so we can confirm this period.

It's a little more than that and you have none of it.

From Larsguy47:

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There's plenty of things in the Bible that is hard to believe, so there's no need to exaggerate when you don't have to RED.

I don't have exaggerate. You have no evidence for the plagues or the wandering in the wilderness (the Flood for that matter). In fact, you have no evidence for the presence of large numbers of Hebrews in Egypt and that time.

RED DAVE

Larsguy47 · 05-08-2007, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

From Larsguy47:
No "might not be"; the proper term is: "is no."

None so far. No gold found. No tents. No graves.

Quote:

From Larsguy47:
You are talking about the death of all the Egyptian cattle and all their first-born children. There is no evidence, cricumstantial or otherwise for this. The stuff about Amenhotep and the Red Sea is nonsense.

So says you. Akhenaten converted to monotheism, that's a big confirmation he experienced the ten plagues!

Quote:

From Larsguy47:
I don't have exaggerate. You have no evidence for the plagues or the wandering in the wilderness (the Flood for that matter). In fact, you have no evidence for the presence of large numbers of Hebrews in Egypt and that time.

You can't disprove it. A negative doesn't disprove something. If I walk across a cement sidewalk I likely left no evidence of that. I couldn't prove I walked across it, but you couldn't prove I didn't. Sometimes some things leave no evidence. But Manetho mentions them leaving and during the reign of Amenophis too (Amenhotep III). So there is a confirmation of when they left.

Kathleen Kenyon confirms the chronology of this period as well, dating the fall of Jericho right in line with the Bible's chronology.

LG47

3DJay · 05-08-2007, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

So says you. Akhenaten converted to monotheism, that's a big confirmation he experienced the ten plagues!

How do you explain his father's interest in Aten, then?

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Kathleen Kenyon confirms the chronology of this period as well, dating the fall of Jericho right in line with the Bible's chronology.

Confirms? By stating there's no evidence, but she believes that's when it must have happened, is confirmation?

Confirm: To support or establish the certainty or validity of; verify.
Verify: To prove the truth of by presentation of evidence or testimony; substantiate.

I'm going to start charging you for English lessons.

Peace

RED DAVE · 05-08-2007, 06:06 AM

From RED DAVE:

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No "might not be"; the proper term is: "is no." [evidence for the Exodus]

From RED DAVE:

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None so far. No gold found. No tents. No graves.

You seem, perhaps, to have learned something. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

No evidence of such a massive presence means they weren't there!

From RED DAVE:

Quote:

You are talking about the death of all the Egyptian cattle, destruction of crops and the death of all their first-born children. There is no evidence, cricumstantial or otherwise, for this. The stuff about Amenhotep and the Red Sea is nonsense.

From Larsguy47:

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So says you.

No, so says the evidence.

From Larsguy47:

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Akhenaten converted to monotheism, that's a big confirmation he experienced the ten plagues!

It's confirmation of a spiritual crisis, which could have been caused by anything from bad digestion to a spiritual experience.

From RED DAVE:

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I don't have exaggerate. You have no evidence for the plagues or the wandering in the wilderness (the Flood for that matter). In fact, you have no evidence for the presence of large numbers of Hebrews in Egypt and that time.

From Larsguy47:

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You can't disprove it. A negative doesn't disprove something.

Sorry, but you're wrong. When there is no evidence for the existence of a large-scale phenomenon or event, Occam's Razor says it didn't happen. By all means go looking for evidence. Let us know when you find some.

From Larsguy47:

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If I walk across a cement sidewalk I likely left no evidence of that. I couldn't prove I walked across it, but you couldn't prove I didn't. Sometimes some things leave no evidence.

We are talking about, amongother things, the mass exit from Egypt of half its population. We already went through this about the Exodus: no evidence, no Exodus.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

But Manetho mentions them leaving and during the reign of Amenophis too (Amenhotep III). So there is a confirmation of when they left.

A document published, what, a thousand years after the alleged event is not worth the parchment it's written on. Besides, you would have to demonstrate that Manetho is an independent source.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

Kathleen Kenyon confirms the chronology of this period as well, dating the fall of Jericho right in line with the Bible's chronology.

Others have dealt with your bizarre interpretations of Kenyon, in this regard and others. (See 3dJay's post 23 above.) In any event, Kenyon has no evidence for the Exodus.

1) No evidence for the departure of 2.5 million people.

2) No evidence for the slaying of the first born.

3) No evidence for massive livestock deaths or crop destruction (famine).

4) It didn't happen.

RED DAVE

Hex · 05-08-2007, 07:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Sorry... Not intentional. :redface:

Well ... I was just pointing it out so you could understand some of the frustration that comes from some of these discussions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

I already told you the Bible can be used to confirm who the pharoah of the Exodus is. It doesn't name the pharoah, but it doesn't name the pharoah in the time of Joseph either. My feeling is that the Bible goes out of its way to create a complex chronology to protect itself from revisionism or to hide certain chronologies or details. That's WHY it might not have been mentioned or HIDDEN as it is here:

My comments are in red: This is the entire chapter 19 of Isaiah:

1 The pronouncement against Egypt: Look! Jehovah is riding on a swift cloud and coming into Egypt. And the valueless gods of Egypt will certainly quiver because of him, and the very heart of Egypt will melt in the midst of it.

A prophecy about Egypt written in retrospection. This is about the coming of the Ten Plagues.

2 “And I will goad Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will certainly war each one against his brother, and each one against his companion, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt must become bewildered in the midst of it, and I shall confuse its own counsel. And they will be certain to resort to the valueless gods and to the charmers and to the spirit mediums and to the professional foretellers of events. 4 And I will deliver up Egypt into the hand of a hard master, and strong will be the king that will rule over them,” is the utterance of the [true] Lord, Jehovah of armies.

The confusion Akhenaten caused when he make monotheism the state religion. Egyptian vs Egyptian. One god versus polytheism.

5 And the water will certainly be dried up from the sea, and the river itself will become parched and actually run dry. 6 And the rivers must stink; the Nile canals of Egypt must become low and parched. The reed and the rush themselves must molder. 7 The bare places by the Nile River, at the mouth of the Nile River, and every seedland of the Nile River will dry up. It will certainly be driven away, and it will be no more. 8 And the fishers will have to mourn, and all those casting fishhooks into the Nile River must express sorrow, and even those spreading fishing nets upon the surface of the water will actually fade away. 9 And the workers in carded flax must become ashamed; also the loom workers on white fabrics. 10 And her weavers must become crushed, all the wage workers grieved in soul.

The nile was turned to blood.

11 The princes of Zo´an are indeed foolish. As regards the wise ones of Phar´aoh’s counselors, [their] counsel is something unreasonable. How will YOU men say to Phar´aoh: “I am the son of wise ones, the son of kings of ancient time”? 12 Where, then, are they—the wise men of yours—that they may now tell you and that they may know what Jehovah of armies has counseled concerning Egypt?

There was competition between Jannes and Jamboress and Moses. They counseled the wrong things in opposition to Yhwh.

13 The princes of Zo´an have acted foolishly, the princes of Noph have been deceived, the keymen of her tribes have caused Egypt to wander about. 14 Jehovah himself has mingled in the midst of her the spirit of disconcertedness; and they have caused Egypt to wander about in all its work, just as someone drunk is made to wander about in his vomit. 15 And Egypt will not come to have any work that the head or the tail, the shoot or the rush, can do.

Yhwh is confusing the counsel of the Egyptians at this time.

16 In that day Egypt will become like women, and it will certainly tremble and be in dread because of the waving of the hand of Jehovah of armies which he is waving against it. 17 And the ground of Judah must become to Egypt a cause for reeling. Everybody to whom one mentions it is in dread because of the counsel of Jehovah of armies that he is counseling against him.

The Jews were a cause of trembling in Egypt before they left.

18 In that day there will prove to be five cities in the land of Egypt speaking the language of Ca´naan and swearing to Jehovah of armies. The City of Tearing Down will one [city] be called.

Now, this is very interesting. We know from the Amarna letters that there was great interaction of the Canaanites with the Egyptians. After the Ten Plagues, cities of the Canaanites in Egypt were prophesied to start worshipping Yhwh.

19 In that day there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary.

KEY. When Egypt converts to Yhwh, a specific location of his altar in Egypt will be effected. That is in the midst of Egypt, meaning in the middle of Egypt and a "pillar beside it's boundary." When Akhenaten built his city to Aten, Akhetaten, he placed boundary stela around the city to keep out false gods. That could be one interpretation of the "boundary". Or it could mean the general boundary line between Upper and Lower Egypt is where this altar to Yhwh will be built. Either way, it is fulfilled quite nicely by the city to Aten Akhenaten built in the "midst" of Egypt.

As you can see, Akhetaten is in near the very middle of Egypt, near the boundary between Upper and Lower Egypt if there was a general line drawn to evenly divide the two.

20 And it must prove to be for a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt; for they will cry out to Jehovah because of the oppressors, and he will send them a SAVIOR, even a grand one, who will actually deliver them.

Of course, the Egyptians are oppressing the Jews and who is a greater SAVIOR in the Bible than Moses in connection with Egypt? "A grand one, who will deliver them." Who delivers the Jews out of Egypt? MOSES. This tells us this is about the Exodus.

21 And Jehovah will certainly become known to the Egyptians; and the Egyptians must know Jehovah in that day, and they must render sacrifice and gift and must make a vow to Jehovah and pay it.

Again, how would the Egyptians know about Yhwh? Would Jehovah's witnesses be preaching and handing out the "Watchtower" and "Awake!"? Will Benny Hinn have his TV program going? No. Egypt gets a personal witness via the Ten Plagues that occur! Based upon that, many Egyptians would now fear Yhwh and pay tribute to him, the leader of those being none other than the next king and queen of Egypt, Akhenaten and Nefertitti, his wife. This confirms that Akhenaten's form of Atenism was approved and accepted by Yhwh. This is confirmed by the text comparisons of how Akhenaten spoke of his God, inspired by holy spirit and how David did the same thing. The texts are so similar that some believe they must be related to one another. New Chronology wants to move Akhenaten down to the time of David it is so profound! So the details might be different, but their concept of their god as inspired by Yhwh himself is the same!

22 And Jehovah will certainly deal Egypt a blow. There will be a dealing of a blow and a healing; and they must return to Jehovah, and he must let himself be entreated by them and must heal them.

So obvious. When did God deal Egypt a blow? The Ten plagues! But after that blow, there was supposed to be "healing", people turning to fear Yhwh and pay him tribute and vows. That's what happened, including to the new pharoah, Akhenaten. So this was fulfilled.

23 In that day there will come to be a highway out of Egypt to As·syr´i·a, and As·syr´i·a will actually come into Egypt, and Egypt into As·syr´i·a; and they will certainly render service, Egypt with As·syr´i·a.

The message route between Assyria/Mitanni and Egypt is well known. This route was mentioned in some of the Amarna texts. But it certainly represents a time when the region of Assyria and Egypt would be very close allies and have great communication. Which they did. This was not always the case, but it was very typical of this wondrous time for Egypt, the Amarna Period.

24 In that day Israel will come to be the third with Egypt and with As·syr´i·a, namely, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 because Jehovah of armies will have blessed it, saying: “Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, As·syr´i·a, and my inheritance, Israel.”

Again, you have very close relations between Assyria and Egypt during this time, with Assyria apparently likewise joining Akhenaten in worship of Yhwh along with Israel. Of note here, though, since who is mentioned first indicates rank, Egypt and Assyria outrank Israel in preference here. Of course, we know why, because the Jews had rebelled even after seeing all these great works, these great works that had Egypt and Assyria now worshipping Yhwh, at least for a short time. So they are mentioned last, but all three at this time are supposed to have the same god. Now when else did that happen but during the only time in Egyptian history where the state religion was "monotheistic" and suppressive of the other gods of Egypt?

So as far as the Bible is concerned? My own interpretation, the Bible confirms who ruled over Egypt right after the Exodus. It was Akhenaten. But here we have a cryptic reference that sounds like a prophecy and still no specific mention of the specific pharoah. Thus, again, some definite reason why the Bible writers, inspired by Yhwh, chose not to give that too much of a definition.

Even when Pharaoh Shishak is mentioned, his interaction is confuscated in the chronology of the Bible. That is, it is dated in year 5 of Rehoboam, and mentioned after some events after Solomon's death. It's a separate record that is out of context with the chronology of Chronicles but the details of the invasion confirm this was still during the rule of Solomon. Thus this is deliberate, and there are other examples where the Bible tries to distract from some of the absolute chronology. My suspicion is that it allowed the Bible to be written and distributed even while the nations were revising their chronology. IF the chronology in the Bible is not well understood then it is less of a target for governments to suppress it.

So ... um ... Why is Cyrus mentioned by name and repeatedly in the book of Ezra? Shouldn't that occurance be shrouded in mystery as well, so as not to give away any of the 'hidden chronology'?

Note: Perhaps this is my own problem. I've never subscribed to any conspiracy theories myself and maybe -I'm- missing something? :huh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

We of course, otherwise can confirm Akhenaten as the pharaoh of the Exodus by Manetho who identifies "Amenophis" as the one associated with the Exodus, though there were revisions of the story by the Egyptians, which is only natural. Governments always have to lie to maintain their PR. The biggest lying organization in the world is the CIA and we like them for that. We expect them to be convincing! So there are apparent Egyptian references to the Jews leaving, but they made it seem they were undesirables and lepers and all that and so they were kicked out instead of being delivered by their God. This might have been even more of a reason why Akhenaten, who had joined the Jews in worship of Yhwh was completely eradicated as much as possible in later Egyptian records. Even Rameses used their family name rather than Amenhotep, even though Rameses was related to the Amenhotep family. Akhenaten was just the worst nightmare for the Egyptians wanting their false gods, especially the money-loving priests.

We also can confirm it was Akhenaten by the chronology of various means, as you know.

So it's no longer an issue of wondering who ruled after the Exodus. We can see that it was Akhenaten. As to why the Bible makes its chronology so cryptic? I think because it protects the Bible against being banned or destroyed and also because it was meant as an "insider" book anyway. With secrets to be understood by insiders and confusing to outsiders.

It worked. Insiders like me can see how to apply things and how to identify and confirm when the Exodus took place, and outsiders are confused or rejecting of those applications.

Hope that answers your question.

So ... The Pharoh is unnamed because it's a conspiracy on the part of the Jews to hide the 'truth', and the Egyptians went out of their way to hide the plagues as a big PR thing? I'm a bit more than skeptical ...

The problem with all of this is that it's your -interpretation-. I'm sure that you can give me plenty of examples of the 'true' hidden chronology. Can you point me toward any Biblical scholars who would back you up on it? If there's a large body who agrees that 'Yes, the Jews hid their true timeline,' then I'll be more accepting. But, to tell the truth Lars, in looking to examine your chronological assertions, I've found you in a field by yourself, so to speak ...

And the PR thing doesn't wash with me. It was a major occurance. If you want to go for a government cover-up, why don't we see big proclaimations to the Egyptian people that explains, in an Egyptian context, -why- all the first born and cattle just died suddenly, or why the Nile and all water turned to blood suddenly? Again, sorry, it doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

NOW, remember, since you asked, you can never challenge this interpretation, you can only disagree with it or reject it.

LG47

Lars, all I can say is that this interpretation is definately -yours-. I've never heard it before, and, after you, I really never expect to hear it again. I can definately reject it as coming from an unfounded position (other than you being the Messiah, which remains to be proved :Cheeky: ), and I'm sure I can find other people with different interpretations than you have. They can challenge your interpretation.

If I come up with a different interpretation, then I can challenge yours. But I'm not going to here, so you're safe.

From me, anyway, if not from those who find out that you're uncovering the conspiracy. People die from that, as I recall ...

Hex · 05-08-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amedeo

Remember? the plague walked away. So, why make a monument to it?

Because the Egyptians recorded big happenings? These subsequent 'natural' and 'unnatural' disasters, in such rapid succession surely would have been noted by -someone- in Egypt, wouldn't you think?

And wouldn't the Egyptians want an explaination for a thing that happens all over Egypt when the real power players are Moses and the unnamed Pharoh?

Hex · 05-08-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

None so far. No gold found. No tents. No graves.

Right, so there's no proof they were there. Again, the sheer number of people involved should raise the chances of leaving remains that archaeologists should find. It should raise them to the level of a mobile city that moves every week or so, right? If we can find nomadic campsites with just a few dwellings to them (a population of maybe the low to mid hundreds), how could archaeologists miss even a million, let alone two?

Face it, for the story to work logically, archaeologists have to find -some- trace ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

So says you. Akhenaten converted to monotheism, that's a big confirmation he experienced the ten plagues!

Your interpretation. I've found no-one who agrees with you on this in the literature. Interpretations ARE NOT PROOF.

And, since Aten worshipping was involved in being a Pharoh to begin with, 'converted' is the wrong term. 'Appropriated' might be a whole lot better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

You can't disprove it. A negative doesn't disprove something. If I walk across a cement sidewalk I likely left no evidence of that. I couldn't prove I walked across it, but you couldn't prove I didn't. Sometimes some things leave no evidence. But Manetho mentions them leaving and during the reign of Amenophis too (Amenhotep III). So there is a confirmation of when they left.

Kathleen Kenyon confirms the chronology of this period as well, dating the fall of Jericho right in line with the Bible's chronology.

LG47

But Lars, they weren't walking on cement. They didn't just cross the street. They wouldn't have been just one person.

Here ... Maybe this will help. Ever seen a place where people take a 'shortcut' across a grassy area when sidewalks don't go directly from some exit area to some other entrance area? Or a place where people cut across an empty lot because it's a shorter distance than walking around? What happens? The grass/weeds/junk gets trampled. The dirt gets exposed and compacted by all those feet. Ruts can start to form, which collect water which the sun dries up and -that- compacts the soil more. Does it take a million people to do this? Nope. 10,000 might do just fine on a one-way trip.

Perhaps you just haven't fully envisioned the scale of what you're suggesting with all this? :huh:

If you need, look to previous posts about Manetho and Kenyon for my arguements there. No need to rehash why they don't really support your claims here.

Larsguy47 · 05-08-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hex

If you need, look to previous posts about Manetho and Kenyon for my arguements there. No need to rehash why they don't really support your claims here.

You're dreaming. Manetho associates the Exodus with Amenhotep III, and Kenyon dates the fall of Jericho by the Israelites between 1350-1325BCE. Both overlap with each other. That is, the end of Amenhotep in 1378 BC dates the fall of Jericho 40 years later in 1338 BCE which falls within the dates for Kenyon. There's nothing to debate. My dating fits theirs. I wouldn't quote them if they didn't agree with my chronology.

Again, as far as the wilderness trek, it is reasonable to imagine that there should have been more evidence left, but we just don't know that much about it. If somone in 1500 BC piles up some stones over a tomb, it can be a witness to that for centuries. But if someone decides to move those stones there will be nothing. Does that mean it didn't happen? No. So who knows if the evidence due to some weather catastrophy in the area didn't destroy a lot of the evidence? The wilderness was facing the sea. There could be some non-considered circumstance that explains this in this case.

But still you can't take this out of the context of all the other evidence we find that confirms the Bible's history from the time of Shishak on through the Neo-Babyllonian Period. Nobody questions that because there is way too much evidence. Case in point Mereneptah's inscription. If that hadn't showed up no telling what theories archaeologists and others would be coming up with.

LG47

Hex · 05-08-2007, 04:52 PM

Lars,

Stick to the topic. I refuse to discuss your Manetho and Kenyon references. We've been over it in a couple of other threads, so let's move on. Or don't you have any other cards in your hand to play here?

I don't give a damn about the Exodus. We trashed that on another thread.

I care about -why- the Pharoh is unnamed and -why- the Egyptians don't mention the plagues -anywhere-.

Again I state: Interpretations ARE NOT PROOF. Conspiracy theories ARE NOT PROOF.

Is there any proof at all?

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05-08-2007, 04:52 PM	#29
Hex Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: www.rationalpagans.com Posts: 445	Lars, Stick to the topic. I refuse to discuss your Manetho and Kenyon references. We've been over it in a couple of other threads, so let's move on. Or don't you have any other cards in your hand to play here? I don't give a damn about the Exodus. We trashed that on another thread. I care about -why- the Pharoh is unnamed and -why- the Egyptians don't mention the plagues -anywhere-. Again I state: Interpretations ARE NOT PROOF. Conspiracy theories ARE NOT PROOF. Is there any proof at all?

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