Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bacht · 09-22-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I believe that the original intent was to use the Septuagint to prove the existance of a superior god to the god of the Jews and to show, through very ingenious mining, the existence of the Christ, the intermediary of this unknown god.

Interesting. The Septuagint would have made it easy to disseminate the Hebrew teachings throughout the Hellenized culture.

But the usual questions apply: who would want to do this, and why? Was some gentile trying to create a new "mystery" religion from the ancient Jewish material? And why place any emphasis on eschatology, especially after the Revolt? The epistles are full of expectancy for the end, which by the 2nd C seems to have receded in Christian teaching.

dog-on · 09-22-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I believe that the original intent was to use the Septuagint to prove the existance of a superior god to the god of the Jews and to show, through very ingenious mining, the existence of the Christ, the intermediary of this unknown god.

Interesting. The Septuagint would have made it easy to disseminate the Hebrew teachings throughout the Hellenized culture.

But the usual questions apply: who would want to do this, and why? Was some gentile trying to create a new "mystery" religion from the ancient Jewish material? And why place any emphasis on eschatology, especially after the Revolt? The epistles are full of expectancy for the end, which by the 2nd C seems to have receded in Christian teaching.

The Septuagint had the benefit of being perceived as ancient, even in the first couple centurys AD. Ancient is always an advantage, (even today...). Perhaps ancient was also viewed as somehow more true, in a sense.

Problem being that Septuagint God was a real SOB who cursed his chosen people with the law...

However, "hidden" among those scriptures...

Eschatology? If your message seems urgent, more people will, perhaps, hear you...

What use is super savior dude, to a god that walked in the garden with his subjects, anyway? None.

But, to a god that is mysterious and hands-off, (though basically a nice guy), perhaps a savior is essential.

show_no_mercy · 09-22-2008, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I would posit that a non-Jewish person, reading the Greek Septuagint, wrote what we now consider the "authentic" letters of Paul.

This person, of course, could easily have been named Paul and was, likely, the originator of the Christ myth.

This group of letters shows up during the second century, in the hands of Marcion.

I also would place "Mark" as possibly even post Justin, though a form of the story (Memoirs of the Apostles) may have existed prior. This story seems to be, simply, a "fleshing out" of the Christ, in Paul's letters.

I believe that the original intent was to use the Septuagint to prove the existance of a superior god to the god of the Jews and to show, through very ingenious mining, the existance of the Christ, the intermediary of this unknown god.

I think that this improved deity is the one that, indeed, Christians now worship.

The Ebionites didn't like Paul very much. They were Jewish-Christians who followed Jewish law but regarded Jesus as "the Christ". They thought that Paul was a Greek gentile who converted to Judaism to marry a daughter of the High Priest. When she rejected him, he "apostatized" and started preaching his - what would become - "Christianity".

bacht · 09-22-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

What use is super savior dude, to a god that walked in the garden with his subjects, anyway? None.

But, to a god that is mysterious and hands-off, (though basically a nice guy), perhaps a savior is essential.

Okay, are you thinking of Gentiles who already believed in the Jewish God, maybe even attending synagogues? Why would a pagan be interested in re-defining the relationship between the God of the Bible and gentiles? Is it something like what happened with the Persian Mithras being adopted by Romanized people?

dog-on · 09-22-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

What use is super savior dude, to a god that walked in the garden with his subjects, anyway? None.

But, to a god that is mysterious and hands-off, (though basically a nice guy), perhaps a savior is essential.

Okay, are you thinking of Gentiles who already believed in the Jewish God, maybe even attending synagogues?

No. I am thinking of Gentiles that read the Jewish scriptures and rejected Yahweh, but found the message hidden from ages past from the unknown, yet most excellent, god.

Quote:

Why would a pagan be interested in re-defining the relationship between the God of the Bible and gentiles? Is it something like what happened with the Persian Mithras being adopted by Romanized people?

Redefining? No.

The Jewish god had was petty and cruel and would always be so.

Those gentiles found the true god and his savior, hidden in the pages of the Septuagint, itself.

For some reason, at a later date, the Jewish god got confused, (or simply fused), with the Christian god, but their original personalities are still identifiable when comparing the OT god to the NT god.

bacht · 09-22-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

The Jewish god had was petty and cruel and would always be so.

Those gentiles found the true god and his savior, hidden in the pages of the Septuagint, itself.

I don't agree with your characterization of Yahweh as simply punitive. Deutero-Isaiah was used by NT writers, and his message is hopeful. The Song of Songs, if applicable to the relationship between God and Israel, is quite tender. The Psalms contain expressions of gratitude.

Some bits I've seen from the Talmud suggest an informal deity, willing to interact with holy men (sorry no references).

dog-on · 09-22-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

The Jewish god had was petty and cruel and would always be so.

Those gentiles found the true god and his savior, hidden in the pages of the Septuagint, itself.

I don't agree with your characterization of Yahweh as simply punitive. Deutero-Isaiah was used by NT writers, and his message is hopeful. The Song of Songs, if applicable to the relationship between God and Israel, is quite tender. The Psalms contain expressions of gratitude.

Some bits I've seen from the Talmud suggest an informal deity, willing to interact with holy men (sorry no references).

Well, cherry-picking was always possible...

Fact is some called the Law a curse. Paul, was it?

bacht · 09-22-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Well, cherry-picking was always possible...

Fact is some called the Law a curse. Paul, was it?

Paul was trying to bridge the Christian message to gentiles. He does argue that Christ is a manifestation of God's love, as well as the coming messiah of God's judgment [But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Rom 5]

dog-on · 09-22-2008, 11:41 AM

Seems more like the sacrificial death was a ransom paid, to redeem us from the curse of the law....but whatever floats you boat....

bacht · 09-22-2008, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Seems more like the sacrificial death was a ransom paid, to redeem us from the curse of the law....but whatever floats your boat....

I'm not a Christian or Jew. There is no theological interest for me personally.

Paul is special because of his desire to include gentiles in an apocalyptic Jewish sect. We can't expect him to have worked out a complete belief system, since the Day of the Lord was on his horizon. All the epistles should be read this way imo. These people were waiting for the end, they didn't envision earthly temples, synagogues or churches in the age to come. The Law was finished because the world was finished.

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09-22-2008, 11:41 AM	#29
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Seems more like the sacrificial death was a ransom paid, to redeem us from the curse of the law....but whatever floats you boat....

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