Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 07-11-2008, 07:46 AM

JW:
With more apologies to Jeffrey Gibson I have to confess that I found another great example of "Markan" Irony, not ironically, in Irony in Mark's Gospel:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_6

Quote:

6:1 And he went out from thence; and he cometh into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

6:2 And when the sabbath was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, Whence hath this man these things? and, What is the wisdom that is given unto this man, and [what mean] such mighty works wrought by his hands?

6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.

6:4 And Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

JW:
Here we have the Ironic contrast that someone who is literally known to work with his hands, "carpenter", is not expected to be able to figuratively work with his hands. This is followed by the brilliant Ironic literary touch that because of Jesus' reputation of doing mighty works with his hands Jesus was than unable to do mighty works with his hands.

Note how "Matthew" exorcises hands from the story:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Matthew_13

Quote:

13:54 And coming into his own country he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

13:55 Is not this the carpenter`s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas?

13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and in his own house.

13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

JW:
"Matthew" does have a hands off attitude towards "carpenter", retaining the word but moving it away from, anywhere from, Jesus. Presumably "Matthew" considered "Mark" Gospel but what he didn't like, such as Jesus being a carpenter, he assumed was a textual error. Without Jesus being a carpenter there is no more reason for the hands references.

Orthodox "Luke" exorcises the story all together. More Micro support for Marcion "Luke" being earlier as clearly "Marcion" is the one who could not have a reference to any existing career of Jesus.

Joseph

CARTESIAN, adj.
Relating to Descartes, a famous philosopher, author of the celebrated dictum, Cogito ergo sum -- whereby he was pleased to suppose he demonstrated the reality of human existence. The dictum might be improved, however, thus: Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum -- "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am;" as close an approach to certainty as any philosopher has yet made.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 07-12-2008, 08:02 AM

JW:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_1

[First Day In Galilee]

Quote:

1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were sick, and them that were possessed with demons.

1:33 And all the city was gathered together at the door.

1:34 And he healed many that were sick with divers diseases, and cast out many demons; and he suffered not the demons to speak, because they knew him.

1:35 And in the morning, a great while before day, he rose up and went out, and departed into a desert place, and there prayed.

1:36 And Simon and they that were with him followed after him;

1:37 and they found him, and say unto him, All are seeking thee.

1:38 And he saith unto them, Let us go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also; for to this end came I forth.

JW:
The above has an implication that the quantity of demand for Jesus' services is starting to aggravate him as he ends up leaving the clean of the signs for solitary confinement. The possible Ironic observation is that Jesus has become so popular with the crowds that he tries to avoid the crowds. What follows makes this ironic observation explicit:

[First Mission In Galilee]

Quote:

1:39 And he went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons.

1:40 And there cometh to him a leper, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

1:41 And being moved with compassion, he stretched forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou made clean.

1:42 And straightway the leprosy departed from him, and he was made clean.

1:43 And he strictly charged him, and straightway sent him out,

1:44 and saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing the things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

1:45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to spread abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into a city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

JW:
And so the Irony is now clear. Jesus has become so popular with the crowds that he now has to try and avoid the crowds. Note that the original for 1:41 "compassion" is likely "anger" based on the External evidence. For the reasons above it is also supported by the Internal evidence. Also note that Jesus commands the leper not to say anything and the (former) leper goes on to say everything. So much for omnipotent Jesus Christ in "Mark". Ironically, this is the reason why Jesus has to try and avoid the crowds. Because his direct command to a believer was ignored.

Note that "Matthew" exorcises the explicit irony from the story:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Matthew_8

Quote:

8:1 And when he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.

8:2 And behold, there came to him a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

8:3 And he stretched forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou made clean. And straightway his leprosy was cleansed.

8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

JW:
Orthodox "Luke" reduces the irony and exorcises Jesus' commandment not being followed:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Luke_5

Quote:

5:12 And it came to pass, while he was in one of the cities, behold, a man full of leprosy: and when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

5:13 And he stretched forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou made clean. And straightway the leprosy departed from him.

5:14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go thy way, and show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

5:15 But so much the more went abroad the report concerning him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed of their infirmities.

5:16 But he withdrew himself in the deserts, and prayed.

Joseph

MAGIC, n.
An art of converting superstition into coin. There are other arts serving the same high purpose, but the discreet lexicographer does not name them.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Clivedurdle · 07-14-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

I know this is from Matthew but it made me think that Mark may be a summary version....

Now to see all the world one has to look in all directions - the cardinal points of the compass - the symbols of Chronos and Christ.

More irony?

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-14-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

I know this is from Matthew but it made me think that Mark may be a summary version....

Now to see all the world one has to look in all directions - the cardinal points of the compass - the symbols of Chronos and Christ.

More irony?

Yes. Even granting that the four cardinal points of the compass was a symbol for "Christ" in Matthews' time. (care to show us something that documents this?). And this he irony of how much you are a victim to your own your credulity and gullibility.

Would you please give some primary documentary evidence - not an un-sourced web page -- that the symbol of Chronos was the Chi-Rho, let alone the cardinal points of the compass.

Jeffrey

Toto · 07-14-2008, 03:33 PM

Please do not hijack this thread with another discussion of Chronos - one thread is enough.

Thank you.

JoeWallack · 09-20-2008, 03:00 PM

JW:
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14

Quote:

Mark 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

Mark 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, [even] this night, before the cock crow twice, shalt deny me thrice.

Mark 14:31 But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee. And in like manner also said they all.

JW:
The prophecy here is that Peter will deny Jesus. Peter's response is to deny that he will deny Jesus.

Bonus material - France pulls a hamstring explaining why the prophecy has the cock crow twice but the explanation is right there in the verse:

1) "But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I."

2) "But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee."

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 12-27-2008, 08:27 AM

JW:
This post is intended as a supplement to this post:

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....67#post5368267

where I illustrate "Mark's" ironic use of "Gospel" at the beginning of his Gospel.

Further evidence for the ironic use of "Gospel" is an analysis of the ending of "Mark":

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6;&version=31;

Quote:

Mark 16

The Resurrection

1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"

4But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

6"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "

8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

JW:
A primary meaning of "Gospel" is a positive message from a messenger regarding a significant event. We have all the ingredients here for Gospel at the Sub-text level (Reader):

Positive message: Jesus was raised.

Messenger: Young man.

Significant event: Crucifixion

Note that at the Text-level (Character) though there is no good news:

Positive message: None. Implication that Jesus is still entombed.

Messenger: Mary, Mary and Salome.

Significant event: Crucifixion

In classic Greek tragedy style we have the irony that the audience can see the good news that the characters can not.

Joseph

JoeWallack · 04-19-2009, 06:28 PM

JW:
The key to "Mark":

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_4

Quote:

Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:

Mark 4:12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.

Mark 4:13 And he saith unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how shall ye know all the parables?

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they have heard, straightway cometh Satan, and taketh away the word which hath been sown in them.

Mark 4:16 And these in like manner are they that are sown upon the rocky [places], who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy;

Mark 4:17 and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble.

Mark 4:18 And others are they that are sown among the thorns; these are they that have heard the word,

Mark 4:19 and the cares of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Mark 4:20 And those are they that were sown upon the good ground; such as hear the word, and accept it, and bear fruit, thirtyfold, and sixtyfold, and a hundredfold.

JW:
"Mark" has a primary ironic theme of life coming from death. What follows is speculative but may have been an intentional ironic balancing by the author:

http://vridar.wordpress.com/

an important part of the historical Nazareth either in the author's time (supporting late dating with an anachronism) or 1st century may have been that it included a hill used for cutting tombs into rock. If there were tombs there than there would not be Jewish homes there. This would yield an ironic balance to "Mark" as follows:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_1

Quote:

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

JW:
If "Mark's audience associated Nazareth with rock tombs than Jesus, the word/seed, who gives life, at the start, comes from the rock tombs of Nazareth.

Compare to:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_16

Quote:

Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him!

JW:
At the end than, Jesus is again associated with Nazareth and is the word/seed, who gives life, at the end, and comes from the rock tomb.

The author has a wonderful theme of associating death with the hardness of a rock tomb and contrasting it with life, associated with the softness of a seed and comparing a seed growing from rock to Jesus growing from a tomb.

The most significant sacrifice in "Mark" is history/theology which is sacrificed to the God of literary style.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Solo · 04-20-2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
......an important part of the historical Nazareth either in the author's time (supporting late dating with an anachronism) or 1st century may have been that it included a hill used for cutting tombs into rock.

-----

Quote:

Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him!

At the end than, Jesus is again associated with Nazareth and is the word/seed, who gives life, at the end, and comes from the rock tomb.

..uh..uh...the mystery of the empty tomb...neither the body of Christ nor the corpse of Jesus of Nazareth were there. They travelled to Galilee, which was 1) in the mythical schema, "Paul's Gentile church", and 2) according to the idolatrous flesh, the place where tombs were worshipped and at times entered into by necromancers.

Here is a funny Aramaic inscription from a necropolis in Bet She'arim:

He who is buried here is Shim'on the son of Yohanan, and an oath, whoever shall open upon him shall die of an evil end.

Kinda makes you wonder if the poor wretch at Gadara mysteriously trapped among the tombs by evil demons or the one called Lazarus in John, did not start by opening up on some skeletal remains in storage.

Jiri

JoeWallack · 06-22-2009, 07:33 AM

Mark II

JW:
I previously demonstrated in this Thread that all 3 uses of "good news/gospel" (εὐαγγελίου) by "Mark" are Ironic:

1) Mark 1

Quote:

1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

At the beginning of the Gospel everyone comes to hear the good news. At the end of the Gospel no one comes to hear the good news (that Jesus was resurrected). Ironic.

2) Mark 8:35

Quote:

For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel`s shall save it.

You can save your life by losing it. Ironic.

3) Mark10:29-30

Quote:

29 Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel`s sake,

30 but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

If you give up everything you will get everything. Ironic.

Note the connecting theme of a Messenger for the good news who receives an Ironic reaction.

The first use of "good news" refers to Jesus as Messenger of the good news who will receive the ironic reaction of being killed/persecuted.

The second use of "good news" is at the Transition of "Mark" from Teaching & Healing Ministry to Passion and clearly states that those who receive the good news from Jesus and themselves become messengers of Jesus and the good news will receive a reaction of death/persecution.

The third use of "good news" is at the start of the Passion and brings the messenger theme to completion by indicating that the messengers above will than create more messengers to deliver the good news and receive a reaction of death/persecution.

"Mark's" source for the Irony of a messenger with good news receiving an ironic reaction to the good news is the Jewish Bible (surprise). The legendary Vorkosigan has already walked these ironic grounds:

Historical Commentary on the Gospel of Mark Chapter 1

Quote:

v1: George Aichele (2003) writes:

"In the Old Testament, euaggelion appears only in 2 Samuel (LXX 2 Kings) 4:10, where David kills the messenger who brings the “good news” of Saul’s death. In addition, the plural form, euaggelia.appears four times in 2 Samuel 18:20, 22, 25, and 27, where it is used in the description of David’s reception of the “tidings” of Absalom’s death, and in 2 Kings (LXX 4 Kings) 7:9, where lepers discover the abandoned camp of the Syrian army. With the exception of this last instance, the message that is brought is not clearly a good one. None of these texts throws much light on the gospel of Mark’s use of the term, unless one wishes to argue that Mark is using the term ironically."

JW:
Yes, who would want to argue that "Mark" wanted to be Ironic?

2 Samuel 4:10-12

Quote:

10 when one told me, saying, Behold, Saul is dead, thinking to have brought good tidings, I took hold of him, and slew him in Ziklag, which was the reward I gave him for his tidings.

11 How much more, when wicked men have slain a righteous person in his own house upon his bed, shall I not now require his blood of your hand, and take you away from the earth?

12 And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up beside the pool in Hebron. But they took the head of Ish-bosheth, and buried it in the grave of Abner in Hebron.

JW:
Note that the theme from the Jewish Bible here is the ironic reaction of killing a messenger who thought he was bringing good news to his audience. Note additionally that David refers to this same phenomena happening in the past as an explanation for his present actions. This is the same primary theme in "Mark", Jesus as messenger with good news ironically receiving a reaction of being killed for it.

Joseph

PROPHECY, n.
The art and practice of selling one's credibility for future delivery.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-14-2008, 03:33 PM	#45
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Please do not hijack this thread with another discussion of Chronos - one thread is enough. Thank you.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.