spin

It's one of the presuppositions of christianity in that it's early in christian tradition, therefore more likely in itself to have a historical basis.

I wasn't responding to your point. I was developing an idea. The evidence that the theology of JtB got out is a) the existence of a non-christian baptist sect called the Mandeans and b) the story of Apollos in Acts 18:24-28.

It is my view that a faith based around messianic expectation with its repent and be prepared mentality was a minor position which may have reflected just what JtB was on about. The expectation of a messiah was in itself part of the heterodox range of Jewish religious traditions and I don't know how widely it would have been accepted (and it doesn't seem to concern the discussion).


spin

Ben C Smith

Not a linguistic connection; a thematic one. Paul is contrasting the false brethren (who were wrong, in his eyes, all along) with the pillars (who were right at first, at the handshake, but wrong later in Antioch).

Ben.

spin

Hello, Ben C., come in... Plainly Paul is not amicable about the pillars. You're not getting into the spirit of the text. These guys aren't something at all in Paul's eyes -- they're just thought to be something in others' eyes. You're duckin' 'n' weavin'.


spin

Ben C Smith

Are you out there, Major Tom?

Plainly Paul is not amicable about the pillars. Plainly he was at least somewhat amicable about them at one time (the handshake).

These guys are not something at all in his eyes. These guys were something in his eyes at one time (the submission of his gospel to them).

Ben.

Solitary Man

Do you hear me, Major Tom?

Sheshbazzar

"Paul's writings" were composed by 2nd century Christian theologians with the aim of discrediting and obscuring the actual beliefs and praxis of 1st century Messianic Jews.
Through the medium of forged "Pauline epistles", they remade "Paul" into a Hellenistic quasi-Greek philosopher, a talking head puppet for the dissemination of their own forms of religious propaganda.
Of course their "Paul" would have to come to disdain The Pillars and the praxis that had prevailed, for the revisionist Hellenistic cult to take over and replace that too "Jewish" form of faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
As that was the only way that religious syncretism could progress and permit the introduction of all those myriad borrowed pagan elements that the Hellenistic/philosopher form of Gentile "Christians" were so enamored of.
The real Paul saw this coming, and had warned against it, thus the "Paul" of latter "Christian" (pagan) propaganda had to be made into a mouthpiece that would overturn, and appear to support the undermining of The Pillars and the praxis.
One need keep in mind, we DO NOT have "Paul's" words, what we do have is the propaganda documents written by 2nd century theologians with an agenda to Hellenise and subvert the Jewish nation and religion.

Solitary Man

Assertion with no evidence.

Assertion with no evidence.

Assertion with no evidence.

Assertion with no evidence.

Assertion with no evidence.

Assertion with no evidence.

0/6. For having shed your Christian beliefs, it was sure quick of you to pick up other beliefs for which there is no evidence.

andrewcriddle

Josephus in his Life states (section 39) that Pharisees made up 3 out of 4 of the team sent by the rebel leadership in Jerusalem to liaise with the rebels in Galilee. I agree that the Pharisees do not seem to have been particularly fervent supporters of the conflict but "nothing" is going too far.

Andrew Criddle

Doug Shaver

What fact, otherwise inexplicable, does that hypothesis explain?

Sheshbazzar

Loads of evidence, much of which has been discussed in these forums at length. My "Christian beliefs" ? come now,
While it is true that I have in the past defended "Belief", I have never posted anything at all on these boards as a "Christian".
The beliefs that I did hold, and those I still do hold, have always been distinctively different and very much at odds with known "Christian beliefs".
How many "Christians" do you know that hold the belief that the Satan's true name is Jesus Christ? and that Jesus Christ is the anti-messiah, and the very figure of Satan the "god" of this present age?
Nothing new to me, as this has been my persuasion for beyond forty years now.
My sympathies are entirely with the Jewish nation, and with all who have resisted the forces of an imposed Hellenistic religious syncretism.
The so called "New Testament" as it exists as a written document is a farce, a fabrication and a rip off on the culture of the Jewish people.
Gee, holding such a position identifies me, "Sheshbazzar", as having held "Christian beliefs"? You ought to have been with those miscreants that composed the NT, as you would have been right at home in that remaking of Paul into being a "Christian".