Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Free Indeed · 04-08-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealityOfMan

Free Indeed - did you personally use a scientific experiment to test God?

Did you ever properly write it up so your peers could review it?

Yes

No, it's a private thing between me and God.

Free Indeed · 04-08-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wooster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

All science has nothing to do with evolution from common ancestry. That is a model to help explain all that we see, no science experiment or anything we observe takes us there.

Was there a reason why you didn't answer my questions? You just went off on something I didn't talk about, why?

No reason in particular that I can think of.

Free Indeed · 04-08-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

The Bible is evidence.

You can't just ask us to accept as fact everything we read in your particular religious book. Do we also accept the Koran and the Four Vedas as evidence? Do we accept Dianetics? Maybe the Christian Protestant Bible really is fact, but we don't just accept it on faith like maybe you would. Demonstrate the claim. It won't be easy. Many of us have already concluded that the Bible is inconsistent with history, inconsistent with scientific knowledge, inconsistent with logic, and inconsistent with itself. What you really need is external evidence. Where are the foundations of the tower of Babel? Where are the remains of the diaspora? There are a lot of ways that the Bible could be proved correct by looking at the world. Where is the global layer of sediment deposited by the flood? Where do we find the salt water and sea life in all of the inland lakes? Where is Noah's Ark? Where are the dinosaur bones and trilobite shells in human camps? Where are the Egyptian recordings of the ten plagues? Where are the remains of the exodus out of Egypt? Where is the huge temple of Solomon?

Job 41 "Can you catch Leviathan with a hook
or put a noose around its jaw?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-monsters.html

"A massive prehistoric sea reptile that was longer than a humpback whale and had teeth the size of cucumbers has been found by fossil hunters on a remote Arctic island."

Sheshbazzar · 04-08-2009, 10:49 AM

Free Indeed you need to keep in mind that your own Bible warns you that a religious deception is going on, and has been going on for ages.
False prophets and false preachers have always put words in the mouth of the Lord which He hath not spoken.
In The Old Testement we are warned;

Quote:

“How can you say; "We are wise, and the doctrine of YHWH is with us?"
But LOOK! -the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
(Jeremiah 8:8)

11. For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith YHWH.

12. Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery [ways] in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, [even] the year of their visitation, saith YHWH.

13. And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

14. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

15. Therefore thus saith YHWH of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16. Thus saith YHWH of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of YHWH.

17. They say still unto them that despise me; "YHWH hath said, Ye shall have peace;" and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart; "No evil shall come upon you."

18. For who hath stood in the counsel of YHWH, and hath perceived and heard His word? who hath marked His word, and heard [it]?

19. Behold, a whirlwind of YHWH is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20. The anger of YHWH shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21. I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. (Jeremiah 23:11-22)

If you love the clever writings of men more than THE TRUTH, you take the side of the false prophets and the false preachers who HAVE abused and added into the Books, words that YHWH did NOT speak, nor did he at any time command them.

Also in The New Testement the same warning stands;

Quote:

7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now allows, will allow, until he be taken out of the way.

8.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom Elohim shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

9. [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of THE TRUTH, that they might be saved.

11. And for this cause Elohim shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12. That they all might be damned who believed not THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess 2:7-12)

It is going on NOW!
Religious writings alone are NOT the answer, and from time of old, the words of the Books of The Scriptures have been compromised by the lying pens of the scribes.

To survive and live one cannot simply put their trust in -any- books written by the hands of men, -most particularly by the hands of religious men, men of the church, of whom we are forewarned;

Quote:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who secretly shall bring in damnable heresies,....
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom THE WAY OF TRUTH shall be evil spoken of. (2 Peter 2:1)

And so it is.
No man is disdained for loving what is TRUE, the shame, and the contempt is rightly laid at the door of those false preachers, who love to lord over men by saying; "it is written, it is written...it is written"; "The Lord saith, The Lord saith...The LORD saith", even what was NOT "written", and words which YHWH Elohim never spoke. Prophets of the deceits of their own hearts.
And although they ran, YHWH DID NOT send them, liars who stand against the TRUTH everyone, prophet, and scribe, and priest together, who have the books that they have fashioned, but have no love for THE TRUTH. It IS idolatry.

Love TRUTH and live in honor, or love the words of corrupted books and perish in disgrace. YHWH will NOT deliver the lovers of lies, who have no love of the truth.

Wooster · 04-08-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wooster

Was there a reason why you didn't answer my questions? You just went off on something I didn't talk about, why?

No reason in particular that I can think of.

Ok, can you get back to actually answering what I ask you about?

In other threads, I've always extended the courtesy of answering your questions to me, you on the other hand has never extended the same courtesy to me. Is that a Christian trait?

Free Indeed · 04-08-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Free Indeed you need to keep in mind that your own Bible warns you that a religious deception is going on, and has been going on for ages.
False prophets and false preachers have always put words in the mouth of the Lord which He hath not spoken.
In The Old Testement we are warned;

Quote:

“How can you say; "We are wise, and the doctrine of YHWH is with us?"
But LOOK! -the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
(Jeremiah 8:8)

11. For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith YHWH.

12. Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery [ways] in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, [even] the year of their visitation, saith YHWH.

13. And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

14. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

15. Therefore thus saith YHWH of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16. Thus saith YHWH of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of YHWH.

17. They say still unto them that despise me; "YHWH hath said, Ye shall have peace;" and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart; "No evil shall come upon you."

18. For who hath stood in the counsel of YHWH, and hath perceived and heard His word? who hath marked His word, and heard [it]?

19. Behold, a whirlwind of YHWH is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20. The anger of YHWH shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21. I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. (Jeremiah 23:11-22)

If you love the clever writings of men more than THE TRUTH, you take the side of the false prophets and the false preachers who HAVE abused and added into the Books, words that YHWH did NOT speak, nor did he at any time command them.

Also in The New Testement the same warning stands;

It is going on NOW!
Religious writings alone are NOT the answer, and from time of old, the words of the Books of The Scriptures have been compromised by the lying pens of the scribes.

To survive and live one cannot simply put their trust in -any- books written by the hands of men, -most particularly by the hands of religious men, men of the church, of whom we are forewarned;

Quote:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who secretly shall bring in damnable heresies,....
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom THE WAY OF TRUTH shall be evil spoken of. (2 Peter 2:1)

And so it is.
No man is disdained for loving what is TRUE, the shame, and the contempt is rightly laid at the door of those false preachers, who love to lord over men by saying; "it is written, it is written...it is written"; "The Lord saith, The Lord saith...The LORD saith", even what was NOT "written", and words which YHWH Elohim never spoke. Prophets of the deceits of their own hearts.
And although they ran, YHWH DID NOT send them, liars who stand against the TRUTH everyone, prophet, and scribe, and priest together, who have the books that they have fashioned, but have no love for THE TRUTH. It IS idolatry.

Love TRUTH and live in honor, or love the words of corrupted books and perish in disgrace. YHWH will NOT deliver the lovers of lies, who have no love of the truth.

Amen.

Free Indeed · 04-08-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wooster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

No reason in particular that I can think of.

Ok, can you get back to actually answering what I ask you about?

In other threads, I've always extended the courtesy of answering your questions to me, you on the other hand has never extended the same courtesy to me. Is that a Christian trait?

See I don't even remember your question, maybe I ask questions in a more kindler gentler way so you can undersand them?

Edited: With all due respect.

Edited 2: I'm going to make a special effort to answer your questions.

Species8472 · 04-08-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimbulb

Where is the evidence that the Tower of Babel was ever built / started / existed?

And no Bible quotes, I said evidence.

The Bible is evidence.

How is the bible evidence?

If the bible is to serve as evidence, it must be first proven absolutely accurate, so in other words if only one biblical claim can be proven to be false, the bible is not absolutely accurate and hence cannot be evidence. There is a very very long list of things in the bible proven to be either inaccurate or directly false.

No text is absolutely accurate, it must be corroborated by other texts or archaeological evidence to at least carry any significant value. Otherwise it is just a claim. The bible is not much supported by any outside evidence, at least not up until the last parts of the OT. This is not strange as the OT was written around the 7th century BC, and all that is written that happened before was largely mythical stories.

ApostateAbe · 04-08-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

You can't just ask us to accept as fact everything we read in your particular religious book. Do we also accept the Koran and the Four Vedas as evidence? Do we accept Dianetics? Maybe the Christian Protestant Bible really is fact, but we don't just accept it on faith like maybe you would. Demonstrate the claim. It won't be easy. Many of us have already concluded that the Bible is inconsistent with history, inconsistent with scientific knowledge, inconsistent with logic, and inconsistent with itself. What you really need is external evidence. Where are the foundations of the tower of Babel? Where are the remains of the diaspora? There are a lot of ways that the Bible could be proved correct by looking at the world. Where is the global layer of sediment deposited by the flood? Where do we find the salt water and sea life in all of the inland lakes? Where is Noah's Ark? Where are the dinosaur bones and trilobite shells in human camps? Where are the Egyptian recordings of the ten plagues? Where are the remains of the exodus out of Egypt? Where is the huge temple of Solomon?

Job 41 "Can you catch Leviathan with a hook
or put a noose around its jaw?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-monsters.html

"A massive prehistoric sea reptile that was longer than a humpback whale and had teeth the size of cucumbers has been found by fossil hunters on a remote Arctic island."

Yeah, evidence like that is what I am talking about. Creation scientists need to examine those fossils and see if they can find evidence that the Kronosaurus breathed fire. Read the rest of the chapter.

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.

21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.

Not only would a fire-breathing Kronosaurus help to prove the Bible, but it would be a bugbear for the theory of evolution. Why in God's name would natural selection produce a swimming creature that breathes fire? I think you are on the right track. The 150-million-year fossil bed may be a problem, but nothing that can't be corrected or overshadowed.

Johnny Skeptic · 04-08-2009, 12:16 PM

Message to Free Indeed: I just started a new thread at
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....75#post5884775 at the General Religious Discussions Forum. The title is "Inerrancy." I quoted some of what you said in this thread. You may not be aware that the current rules state that threads on inerrancy must be posted at the General Religious Discussions Forum.

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04-08-2009, 12:16 PM	#160
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to Free Indeed: I just started a new thread at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....75#post5884775 at the General Religious Discussions Forum. The title is "Inerrancy." I quoted some of what you said in this thread. You may not be aware that the current rules state that threads on inerrancy must be posted at the General Religious Discussions Forum.

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