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Old 02-21-2009, 05:00 AM   #51
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But I'm aware that mythicists have other reasons to suspect there was no historical Jesus:
1. Virgin-born, crucified and resurrected godmen were a dime-a-dozen in those days.
2. Pagans thought that their myths were carried out in an "overlapping dimension".
3. The Jesus story was patterned along astrotheological lines, as were myths worldwide.
4. Eusebius et al forged all the early literature
It is considered bad form to mock your opponents by mischaracterizing their arguments.
:huh: Please revise this list, or add to it, or do whatever you like to it, to avoid the mischaracterization.

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But this thread is just about what Paul didn't say.
Actually, it is about weird excuses for why Paul didn't say much about a historical Jesus.
:banghead: Have you even been reading this thread? Is it even worth asking you to list what weird excuses I have offered for why Paul didn't say much about a historical Jesus?

I've written quite a few times in this thread that I don't know why Paul wrote the way he did, and that it may even be evidence for ahistoricity.

You know, I don't know how many times you have misread what I've written recently. You now seem to be arguing against some phantom GakuseiDon who exists only in your own head.

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What do you personally think is the strongest argument in favour of mythicism, Toto? And where would you put the lack of historical details in Paul in that list?
Mythicism is a conclusion that is reached after viewing all the evidence and developng a theory of the origins of Christianity.
What conclusion have you personally come to after viewing all the evidence? What is your theory of the origins of Christianity?

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The lack of historical detail in Paul is a very minor factor.
OK, thanks.
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Old 02-21-2009, 05:04 AM   #52
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The first Christians were no different from today Christians. They both regard Christ as essentially an heavenly being
No, those were the second wave of Christians, not the first.
Blooming eck! So Paul was a second wave Christian???? :Cheeky:
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Old 02-21-2009, 05:38 AM   #53
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But I'm aware that mythicists have other reasons to suspect there was no historical Jesus:
1. Virgin-born, crucified and resurrected godmen were a dime-a-dozen in those days.
2. Pagans thought that their myths were carried out in an "overlapping dimension".
3. The Jesus story was patterned along astrotheological lines, as were myths worldwide.
4. Eusebius et al forged all the early literature

Dear Don.

One might also add ...

5. Absence of any corroborating archaeological evidence.
6. The apocryphal NT mimic and bag Jesus and the Super-Crew.

Elephants leave tracks, peanut shells and large lumps of manure. It is quite possible that in the room we have nothing except three blind christians. When I was a kid there were these elephant jokes. You know .... "Have you ever seen an elephant in your refrigerator"? No .... "Shows how well they hide themselves."

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 02-21-2009, 05:52 AM   #54
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6. The apocryphal NT mimic and bag Jesus and the Super-Crew.
Is that an actual mythicist theory? I haven't heard of that one.
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Old 02-21-2009, 05:53 AM   #55
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Doherty's position on Ignatius is very interesting, and in fact I had that partially in mind when I wrote about the problem with time-lines in my OP.

In his book, Doherty writes (p. 260 paperback edition):
As noted in chapter 6, Ignatius is unlikely to be familiar with a written Gospel, for he would surely have pointed to one in support of his declaration that Jesus had been born of Mary and crucified by Pilate... Nowhere in all of his seven letters, written around the year 107 while he was being brought to Rome for execution, does Ignatius quote a single teaching of Jesus, nor a miracle, nor any detail of the passion under Pilate which he so ardently defends.

All this would suggest that the biography he put forward is of recent vintage, and that few if any other details of Jesus' human life are known to him.
So, these ideas about a historical Jesus are new, and thus we wouldn't expect many details by Ignatius, simply because few existed.

Now, on his website here, Earl writes (my bolding):
Whether all the circumstances of Ignatius’ condemnation and martyrdom are historical or not, the question of the authenticity of the letters themselves is a separate issue. Traditional scholarship by and large accepts them; radical scholarship since the late 19th century has tended to date them later, perhaps as late as 160. Again, it is not crucial for the purposes of this article to arrive at a firm decision as to authenticity. My own inclination would be to lean away from authenticity but to date them no more than a decade or two after Ignatius’ passing. The main reason for finding a date after the middle of the century unconvincing is the absence in the shorter recension of all but the most basic Gospel data along with elements like apostolic tradition and succession, and the conclusion that the writer was familiar with no written Gospels.
So, Earl pushes the date back by a decade or two (meaning roughly between 117 and 136 CE). He won't date them later than 150 CE because only the most basic details are known.
One should note that the date of the martyrdom of Ignatius is itself open to question. IE, if one dates the letters to the time of Hadrian rather than Trajan, then it at least arguable that, rather than regarding the letters as post-Ignatian, one should date the martyrdom as well as the letters in the time of Hadrian.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 02-21-2009, 06:02 AM   #56
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Elephants leave tracks, peanut shells and large lumps of manure. It is quite possible that in the room we have nothing except three blind christians. When I was a kid there were these elephant jokes. You know .... "Have you ever seen an elephant in your refrigerator"? No .... "Shows how well they hide themselves."

Best wishes,


Pete
And on top of that still they want to convince you that what is seen in the refrigerator is not really there.
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Old 02-21-2009, 06:07 AM   #57
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Elephants leave tracks, peanut shells and large lumps of manure. It is quite possible that in the room we have nothing except three blind christians. When I was a kid there were these elephant jokes. You know .... "Have you ever seen an elephant in your refrigerator"? No .... "Shows how well they hide themselves."

Best wishes,


Pete
And on top of that still they want to convince you that what is seen in the refrigerator is not really there.
If Jesus/Christianity actually existed since the time specified in the Bible, we are not referring to an elephant, but to an insignificant ant.
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Old 02-21-2009, 06:12 AM   #58
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6. The apocryphal NT mimic and bag Jesus and the Super-Crew.
Is that an actual mythicist theory? I haven't heard of that one.
It's dormant.
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Old 02-21-2009, 07:32 AM   #59
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If Jesus/Christianity actually existed since the time specified in the Bible, we are not referring to an elephant, but to an insignificant ant.
And if Jesus/Christianity did not actually exist at the time specified, we are looking at lies of elephant proportions.


Against the Galileans by Julian Book I
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It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish, it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth....
So which category below to do believe christianity started with?

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started with an historical savior in the 1st century (mainstream HJ)

started with a mythical saviour in the 1st century (mainstream MJ)

started with a fictional construction by a political schemer in the 4th century. (FJ)
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_006.htm
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:27 AM   #60
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It is considered bad form to mock your opponents by mischaracterizing their arguments.
:huh: Please revise this list, or add to it, or do whatever you like to it, to avoid the mischaracterization.
It''s just that none of those are really reasons for mythicism by themselves.

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:banghead: Have you even been reading this thread? Is it even worth asking you to list what weird excuses I have offered for why Paul didn't say much about a historical Jesus?

I've written quite a few times in this thread that I don't know why Paul wrote the way he did, and that it may even be evidence for ahistoricity.

You know, I don't know how many times you have misread what I've written recently. You now seem to be arguing against some phantom GakuseiDon who exists only in your own head.
I think your idea that Paul didn't have any interest in the historical Jesus is fairly weird. And when you try to say that all of early Christianity didn't have any interest in the historical Jesus who was just on earth recently, not even caring to ask his putative brother or other people who knew him, it gets even weirder.

I don't think I'm misreading what you write, But it is very frustrating to have you arguing, and often agree with the points that people make against you but never change your position. It's as if you have made up your mind for other reasons that you are not telling us, and seeing what sort of arguments can be made against the publicly available part of your reasons. And then after your position has been refuted in my opinion, you pop up in another thread and make the same arguments.

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What conclusion have you personally come to after viewing all the evidence? What is your theory of the origins of Christianity?
I haven't viewed all the evidence. My theory so far is that Christianity arose after the destruction of the Temple, that Jesus was a symbolic savor who was historicized, and that Christianity has always depended on either state sponsorship or a highly gullible social group.
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