Amaleq13

Hazel-rah and Spin,


Thanks for the information.

The connection to "vagrant" seems like a good one if the Abraham/Ivrahim idea isn't viable.

I'm not sure I undertand why the name Eber be used as the source for naming the entire tribe. Do they consider themselves to be the descendants specifically of Shem?

That seems even better than "vagrant" and maybe even better than "Abraham/Ivrahim". Is the Hebrew word at least close to "ivri"? What is a good online source for this subject?

godfry n. glad

It was my understanding that the "Hebrew" derived from the Egyptian term for "wandering hoodlums": "apiru". The Hebrews adopted is as a term of honor...

godfry

spin

Yeah, I forgot that one. It's a scholarly construct developed after having found the term habiru/'apiru in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records. It is a theory based on similarity, which doesn't explain why one might have the term used throughout the region, from Northern Syria down to the bottom of Palestine.

The term itself best seems to indicate "outlaws", people on the margins of society and don't quite fit into the idea of "sedentary".

It's not too easy to make the linguistic connection because the word always has a medial "i".

Lastly, as it appears in literature very early -- the Amarna letters for example are from the 14th century BCE and deal with apiru in Palestine --, there doesn't seem to be a way of connecting it to the people we call Hebrews.

I've had a few run-ins with academics who assume it as the source for "Hebrew".


spin

Celsus

Haha. Lemche demolished the hab/piru arguments in Prelude to Israel's Past, particularly with its linguistic equivalence to the Sumerian SA.GAZ. What were the academics' response to that? i(v)bri and abiru have the same consonantal root br, so the argument isn't that far-fetched linguistically, and critiques shouldn't arrive from that direction. If, as godfry n. glad suggests, the Hebrews adopted it as a term of honour ("nigger" anyone?), then there is absolutely no evidence for this other than conjecture.

Joel

P.S. What did you think of the forum? I think you'll quite enjoy sparring with DrJim & Brian.

Kosh

Although I suspect that Magus has already abandoned this thread, let's kick a dead horse, just in case he's still lurking.

For his education (and others), here are some links to pictures of the Sinai. As you can see, it's not the Sahara....

http://www.cameldive.com/sinai-desert-pictures.htm
http://www.ehabweb.net/Sinai_desert.html
http://www.shark-bay.com.eg/Mountains.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/1015/sinpix.htm

Well, my foot is getting tired. But these were just the first few links from searching "sinai desert pictures" in yahoo.

spin

When did he write that? Last time I communicated -- I was going to say a couple of years ago, but I guess it was a little longer -- with him he was still advocating the connection, so I poured scorn on it as linguistic serendipity, but he thought it was the best bet. So, when was the book written?

Did he footnote the SA.GAZ idea to Landsberger or was that his idea?

This seems to be the mainstream in my memory. I also would like to hear about scholars' reactions to Lemche. (The last time I exchanged mail with him I was trying to justify my use of Canaanite as a geographical term, which he objected to. Getting language right in these matters is so important so as to eliminiate hidden assumptions.)


spin

It looked pretty neat, although it was just starting up so the traffic wasn't heavy. I have a basic problem in that I have no fixed email, otherwise I would be interested in discussions on HB.

Incidentally, do you know anyone with enough Hebrew knowledge to be able to clue me up on distinguishing between locative and instrumental uses of B-, especially in this context,

YDW$W 'T H-'RC B-SWSYHM ($ = sin/shin, ' = alef, C = tsade)

They threshed the earth on/with their horses

How can one decide if B- is locative or instrumental?

How can any reader decide?

(In early Anglo-Saxon texts the distinction between locative and instrumental was breaking down in this sort of case.)

Celsus

1996, although the English version came out in 1998.
He actually credits it to Hugo Winckler and confirmation in the Hattusas documents (where hab/piru and SA.GAZ are used interchangeably). Unfortunately, he gives no citation of Winckler's work (not even a date! I'd assumed it was old news). See pages 137-141. I think once he accepted the Winckler thesis, he turned on the idea, and indeed nothing more is needed--his other arguments are rather like flogging the above-mentioned horse. Incidentally, for those interested, SA.GAZ probably derives from the Akkadian saggasu, meaning "murderers." Not nice people these hap/biru.

Definitely. Anyone else got any information? I've only just finished Lemche anyway, so I haven't even begun to look for reactions to it--much too busy these days.
Don't worry about the email problem--just go with something temporary for now. We need more people there.
Sorry, I'm no Hebrew scholar, just a lowly amateur. I have started teaching myself it, but have made little progress, so even if I wasn't a complete ignoramus, I could hardly be an authority. Have you asked Apikorus?

Joel

spin

Regarding the connection between Habiru and SA.GAZ:

The logic isn't convincing to me. The generic use across the Amarna corpus of letters is "outlaw/outcast", someone at the edge of society or beyond it. One Amarna letter talks of people joining the habiru or becoming them without any direct notion of them being or becoming murderers (but Lemche knows this, reading the stuff in their original language -- a form of Akkadian used by scribes in the Levant). Words can gather connotations in local situations that are not carried across the whole user base. I don't think the usage in Hattusas can be considered applicable to the whole linguistic community. (When the Flinstones song talks about them having "a gay old time", nobody would think that it was a reference to sexual preference. Maybe you can find a simpler clearer example. )

Well, it still is, because I have an internet connection without the email connection -- well, the email is on someone else's computer... Don't I need email to get some sortof confirmation?


spin

godfry n. glad

Apikorus...

An excellent suggestion. If he doesn't know, he'll know who does.


godfry

Celsus

Well my understanding of SA.GAZ is that it is a good deal older than Amarna letters, and so may have lost some of its derogatory force over the centuries to mean something along those lines. However, to me the original Akkadian word is obvious enough... Anyway, I think we've sidetracked this topic enough as it is.
Not at the moment--there is no user or admin confirmation set at this point,

Joel