Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Juststeve · 09-28-2010, 12:14 PM

Diogenes:

Perhaps you expressed yourself poorly and meant to say that you inferred the nonexistence of Abraham and the patriarchs from the lack of archeological evidence. If so then I draw the same inference as well although not as strongly for Abraham as for Moses.

If on the other hand you meant what you said “ All the available historical and archaeological evidence shows both Abraham (and the rest of the Patriarchs) and Moses to be wholly mythological characters”, then what is the evidence to which you refer?

Steve .

Diogenes the Cynic · 09-28-2010, 12:36 PM

In the case of Moses, it's the lack of an Exodus event, without which no "Moses" character can be defined.

In the case of Abraham, it's a similar lack of any defining historical event, along with the fact that the archaeological evdience contradicts much of the story (the Israelites were not immigrants to the region, but emerged from indigeonous Canaanites) as well as the fact that much of the Genesis story is anachronistic with regards to place names and other details relative to the alleged time of the events.

semiopen · 09-28-2010, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

That's all very imaginative and entertaining, but none of it has the slightest empirical support. All the available historical and archaeological evidence shows both Abraham (and the rest of the Patriarchs) and Moses to be wholly mythological characters.

Moses was probably dimly inspired by the Pharaoh Ahmose I (and his expulsion of the Hyksos which was a likely source for the Exodus myth) who lived in the 16th Century BCE -- long before any such thing as the Hebrews or an Israelite Yahweh cult existed yet.

One of the reasons I brought this up was because the dates for the Chaldeans are totally off. Abraham apparently couldn't have been a Chaldean, so this might be an anachronism.

sugarhitman · 09-28-2010, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Moses existed, and so did all the rest of the Jewish leaders.

And we should believe that just because you say so?

Well yeah?

sugarhitman · 09-28-2010, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

And we should believe that just because you say so?

Yup. He's been proven right so often! Just search the archives. You'll be impressed. He's demonstrated his rightness through the mystical art of assertion more times than you'd believe. (With such a record, I don't know how anyone can respond to him.)

spin

Well if it isnt my old sparring partner...those were good times. Glad to see you lavish praise upon me...makes me feel as right as rain.

Minimalist · 09-28-2010, 08:02 PM

Moses is a fictional character leading a fictional event. Just like Joshua.

Doug Shaver · 09-29-2010, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

And we should believe that just because you say so?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Well yeah?

OK. Just wanted to make sure we were clear on that.

Juststeve · 09-29-2010, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Moses is a fictional character leading a fictional event. Just like Joshua.

And we should believe it just because you say so?

Steve

Joan of Bark · 09-29-2010, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

A historical Moses, although certainly not impossible, appears to be highly improbable.

In my judgment, someone would have to have done more than just lead a few slaves escaping out of Egypt to qualify as the historical Moses.

Similarly, I think it takes more to qualify as the historical King Arthur than to have won a few battles and have been named Arthur.

If a man has a dramatic story, which is far better than the reality, others may want to adopt and embellish it for the sake of unifying and giving pride to a relatively new culture. Moses' exodus tale is far more interesting than that of a few thousand people quietly immigrating to the coast of Palestine.

semiopen · 09-29-2010, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Moses is a fictional character leading a fictional event. Just like Joshua.

And we should believe it just because you say so?

Steve

Joshua is difficult to believe because there is no evidence of a conquest or Exodus.

Moses has the same issue, if there was no Exodus was there a Moses?

Moses might be less clear though because it is reasonable to think that something must have happened in Egypt for it to be so important... even so it's hard to imagine what this guy, if he existed, did.

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09-28-2010, 12:14 PM	#31
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Diogenes: Perhaps you expressed yourself poorly and meant to say that you inferred the nonexistence of Abraham and the patriarchs from the lack of archeological evidence. If so then I draw the same inference as well although not as strongly for Abraham as for Moses. If on the other hand you meant what you said “ All the available historical and archaeological evidence shows both Abraham (and the rest of the Patriarchs) and Moses to be wholly mythological characters”, then what is the evidence to which you refer? Steve .

09-28-2010, 12:36 PM	#32
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	In the case of Moses, it's the lack of an Exodus event, without which no "Moses" character can be defined. In the case of Abraham, it's a similar lack of any defining historical event, along with the fact that the archaeological evdience contradicts much of the story (the Israelites were not immigrants to the region, but emerged from indigeonous Canaanites) as well as the fact that much of the Genesis story is anachronistic with regards to place names and other details relative to the alleged time of the events.

09-28-2010, 08:02 PM	#36
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Moses is a fictional character leading a fictional event. Just like Joshua.

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