FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-23-2010, 06:50 AM   #21
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camio View Post
Sorry for the eye-catching title, but this is my third, and I hope this time last and successful try to discuss here the Testimonium Flavianum viewed as authentic.

There is a French scholar called Serge Bardet who wrote his PhD dissertation some years ago on the TF, thoroughly reviewing all that had been said on the subject in the past two centuries. Some high-ranking scholars in France (and maybe elsewhere) changed their mind on the subject (i.e. from "the TF is total forgery" to "the TF is authentic", Pierre Geoltrain for instance) after considering his work. His book wasn't translated in English, but his main arguments (without the complete development of course) are included in the entry of the French Wikipedia on the TF.
Why has this not been translated? One would expect some Christian to pick it up if it were that persuasive. Or are the sort of apologists who would be interested all too parochial?
It is indeed somewhat parochial to be unable to read French; still more to believe that everything of importance must be translated into English; and incredibly parochial to assert that something must be false, if those with whom we disagree have not troubled to translate it for us.

Rather more relevant, surely, is how we can access Bardet's thesis. Camio? Is it available anywhere?

I've snipped the remainder of the comments, which don't really address the points being made (not all of which I agree with, tho).

Quote:
There are lots of forgeries in early Christianity, some of which just seem to be filling in the gaps of creating a history for Christians where there was none.
This is very misleading, as an explanation for the existence of the TF. One would need to see some evidence.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 07:16 AM   #22
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse
My own preference is that we shouldn't say something in a book is not authorial without good reason.
Better stated, it is not logical to accept supernatural claims in a book without good reason. Supernatural claims are much less believable than secular claims are. There are lots of good reasons for people to assume that Jesus did not perform miracles, certainly not "throughout all Syria," reference Matthew
4:24. No true miracle worker could ever have performed miracles thoughout the entire country of Syria without attracting much more attention that was given to Jesus in the first century, including without attracting much more attention from Josephus.

Obviously, the more unusual something is, the more attention it attracts. If true, the Ten Plagues in Egypt and the many miracles that Jesus performed in many places were easily two of the biggest, most incredible, most unusual news stories in human history. In both cases, the lack of corrobative non-biblical support is good reason for people to reject the claims.
Johnny Skeptic is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 08:57 AM   #23
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post

Why has this not been translated? One would expect some Christian to pick it up if it were that persuasive. Or are the sort of apologists who would be interested all too parochial?
It is indeed somewhat parochial to be unable to read French;
This makes me think of those sad colonial days of the effete English aristocracy and their views on culture when they thought to have a modest grasp of French was the apex of sophistication.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
still more to believe that everything of importance must be translated into English; and incredibly parochial to assert that something must be false, if those with whom we disagree have not troubled to translate it for us.
It's not unreasonable to think, if these ideas have been put before an English language forum that the relevant materials be available in that language.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 09:22 AM   #24
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Bardet's thesis is cited as

Serge Bardet, Flavius Josèphe et les Français. Études d’histoire et d’épistémologie, 1838-1989, unpublished Ph.D. Diss., École des Hautes Études en Sciences sociales, Paris, 1994. His book is Le Testimonium Flavianum : Examen historique considérations historiographiques (or via: amazon.co.uk), but amazon says it is out of print with limited availability. It seems to be more available in Europe here.

(The amazon.uk link is automatically generated, but gives a 404 page not found error.)
Toto is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 10:44 AM   #25
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Bardet's thesis is cited as

Serge Bardet, Flavius Josèphe et les Français. Études d’histoire et d’épistémologie, 1838-1989, unpublished Ph.D. Diss., École des Hautes Études en Sciences sociales, Paris, 1994. His book is Le Testimonium Flavianum : Examen historique considérations historiographiques (or via: amazon.co.uk), but amazon says it is out of print with limited availability. It seems to be more available in Europe here.

(The amazon.uk link is automatically generated, but gives a 404 page not found error.)
Thanks for this. I do find that Amazon is not reliable on things being out of print, particularly scholarly stuff. But for French books, the French Amazon is probably best.
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 10:58 AM   #26
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default

Quote:
And those whom the apostles appointed tossed them straight out of the church as people telling lies they made up themselves. I don't quite see how the claims of people whom the early Christians rejected, as not sharing their religion, can be evidence.

Umm, we have clear evidence of a dispute, with one side calling the other liars and taking sanctions against them.

Actually, that is very clear evidence that some people thought Jesus did not exist!
Clivedurdle is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 10:59 AM   #27
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post

It is indeed somewhat parochial to be unable to read French; still more to believe that everything of importance must be translated into English; and incredibly parochial to assert that something must be false, if those with whom we disagree have not troubled to translate it for us.
This makes me think of those sad colonial days of the effete English aristocracy and their views on culture when they thought to have a modest grasp of French was the apex of sophistication.

Well, that certainly put me in my place!

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 11:01 AM   #28
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle View Post
Quote:
And those whom the apostles appointed tossed them straight out of the church as people telling lies they made up themselves. I don't quite see how the claims of people whom the early Christians rejected, as not sharing their religion, can be evidence.
Umm, we have clear evidence of a dispute, with one side calling the other liars and taking sanctions against them.

Actually, that is very clear evidence that some people thought Jesus did not exist!
Change of subject, I see; but did the docetists think Jesus did not exist? Rather than existing, but his body being unlike that of normal men?
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 11:29 AM   #29
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle View Post
Quote:
And those whom the apostles appointed tossed them straight out of the church as people telling lies they made up themselves. I don't quite see how the claims of people whom the early Christians rejected, as not sharing their religion, can be evidence.

Umm, we have clear evidence of a dispute, with one side calling the other liars and taking sanctions against them.

Actually, that is very clear evidence that some people thought Jesus did not exist!
You mean some people thought that Jesus did not exist as a human, perhaps as some type of human looking Ghost, Phantom or non-flesh entity.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:42 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 572
Default

When one looks on AJ bk.18, ch.3, what is seen is a total five paragraphs, the first two dealing with Pilate’s trouble with the Jews on account of religious conflicts; the third deals with Pilate’s yielding to the Jews on a conflict with another religion, Christianity; the fourth, with the calamity fallen down onto the Jews because of the abuses of a third religion, the rites of Isis; and the last one, the calamity fallen down onto the Jews as a whole because of the abuses of a few of them.

A theory here outlined says that the third paragraph, which speaks of Christ, is unnecessary. However, if one suppresses that paragraph, there is no link whatsoever between the second and the fourth: the former happens in Judaea while the latter in Rome, the former deals with Judaism while the latter with the rites of Isis. It is the character of Pilate, who is mentioned in both the second and the third paragraph, that links Judaism with another religion – Christianity – and thus the transition to a third religion – the rites of Isis – is softened.
ynquirer is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:01 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.