Roger Pearse

It is indeed somewhat parochial to be unable to read French; still more to believe that everything of importance must be translated into English; and incredibly parochial to assert that something must be false, if those with whom we disagree have not troubled to translate it for us.

Rather more relevant, surely, is how we can access Bardet's thesis. Camio? Is it available anywhere?

I've snipped the remainder of the comments, which don't really address the points being made (not all of which I agree with, tho).

This is very misleading, as an explanation for the existence of the TF. One would need to see some evidence.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Johnny Skeptic

Better stated, it is not logical to accept supernatural claims in a book without good reason. Supernatural claims are much less believable than secular claims are. There are lots of good reasons for people to assume that Jesus did not perform miracles, certainly not "throughout all Syria," reference Matthew
4:24. No true miracle worker could ever have performed miracles thoughout the entire country of Syria without attracting much more attention that was given to Jesus in the first century, including without attracting much more attention from Josephus.

Obviously, the more unusual something is, the more attention it attracts. If true, the Ten Plagues in Egypt and the many miracles that Jesus performed in many places were easily two of the biggest, most incredible, most unusual news stories in human history. In both cases, the lack of corrobative non-biblical support is good reason for people to reject the claims.

spin

This makes me think of those sad colonial days of the effete English aristocracy and their views on culture when they thought to have a modest grasp of French was the apex of sophistication.



It's not unreasonable to think, if these ideas have been put before an English language forum that the relevant materials be available in that language.


spin

Toto

Bardet's thesis is cited as

Serge Bardet, Flavius Josèphe et les Français. Études d’histoire et d’épistémologie, 1838-1989, unpublished Ph.D. Diss., École des Hautes Études en Sciences sociales, Paris, 1994. His book is Le Testimonium Flavianum : Examen historique considérations historiographiques (or via: amazon.co.uk), but amazon says it is out of print with limited availability. It seems to be more available in Europe here.

(The amazon.uk link is automatically generated, but gives a 404 page not found error.)

Roger Pearse

Thanks for this. I do find that Amazon is not reliable on things being out of print, particularly scholarly stuff. But for French books, the French Amazon is probably best.

Clivedurdle

Umm, we have clear evidence of a dispute, with one side calling the other liars and taking sanctions against them.

Actually, that is very clear evidence that some people thought Jesus did not exist!

Roger Pearse

Well, that certainly put me in my place!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Change of subject, I see; but did the docetists think Jesus did not exist? Rather than existing, but his body being unlike that of normal men?

aa5874

You mean some people thought that Jesus did not exist as a human, perhaps as some type of human looking Ghost, Phantom or non-flesh entity.

ynquirer

When one looks on AJ bk.18, ch.3, what is seen is a total five paragraphs, the first two dealing with Pilate’s trouble with the Jews on account of religious conflicts; the third deals with Pilate’s yielding to the Jews on a conflict with another religion, Christianity; the fourth, with the calamity fallen down onto the Jews because of the abuses of a third religion, the rites of Isis; and the last one, the calamity fallen down onto the Jews as a whole because of the abuses of a few of them.

A theory here outlined says that the third paragraph, which speaks of Christ, is unnecessary. However, if one suppresses that paragraph, there is no link whatsoever between the second and the fourth: the former happens in Judaea while the latter in Rome, the former deals with Judaism while the latter with the rites of Isis. It is the character of Pilate, who is mentioned in both the second and the third paragraph, that links Judaism with another religion – Christianity – and thus the transition to a third religion – the rites of Isis – is softened.