Starboy

I understand that is what Faith is advocating, and then there is Christianity itself. With the central figure Jesus on a mission of conditional (judgmental) love. If there was no judgment involved then Christianity would be a completely different religion. Instead of dwelling on punishment (the result of judgment) and redemption it would just be some good advice that people could take or leave with no consequences. But if that were the case it would make Christianity irrelevant. No, Christians must scare the bejesus out of people with the offer you can't refuse.

Starboy

Faith

Well, I can only say that it seems as if those individuals aren't living according to Jesus' teachings. I tend to place more stock in Matthew 7:1 and John 8:7, in which Jesus tells us not to judge unless we ourselves are free of sin...


...and since I am incapable of living righteously and unhypocritically, I try to leave the judging to God.

Mageth

Quite right. And that leaves Faith with a bit of a sticky wicket - for Faith must not, by [his or her?] own standards, judge non-believers (or even 'non-true Christians'), but at the same time is faced with the question about what exactly to do with, or for, non-believers or 'non-true Christians'.

However, Faith, AFAIK, has not expressed any particular stand on the afterlife. I don't know if s/he is a literal heaven/hell type believer. But in any case, I assume Faith considers belief and a Christian life, and "true Christian" belief and life, to be superior to non-belief and "not true Christian" life for some reason or another.

So, Faith, how can you "sell" your beliefs to us non-believiers, or to errant believers, if you can't "judge" our beliefs (or lack thereof) as being inferior to yours in some way? (Note: you may not be interested in "selling" your beliefs). And what, exactly, do you think will happen to an unbeliever, or an errant Chrisitian after death? Specifically, if you believe that we are facing something rather unpleasant, or at least not optimal, for not believing and living as you do, how can you not try to sell us on the superiority of your beliefs, thus judging our beliefs (or lack thereof)? If you don't think that we are facing a sub-optimal afterlife, then what difference does it matter what we believe or don't believe, and what difference does it make if some Christians judge others?

Faith

I'm not especially interested in "selling" my beliefs to someone who isn't interested in "buying". I'm even less interested in judging someone as inferior for their lack of belief in God. I presume you came believe what you do after much consideration, just as I did...I'm not inclined to tell you your choice is the wrong one.


I believe in the Christian concepts of Heaven and Hell. I do not believe non-believers enter the Kingdom of Heaven. As to what Hell entails, I'm not sure. Perhaps it is simply life outside the presence of God. If you are a non-believer, I can't think that would upset you too much.

miata

I used to pray and now I don't. Still half of the things I wish for seem to happen which is about the same as when I was begging god for mercy for being a lowly being.
If we can have self confidence then that would seem to be faith in our ability to take some control of our lives. Half of all emotional problems are thought to be a result of low self esteem.
I think a God that is love would most likely love us without conditions. If Christ died for us prior to us being born it would seem unconditional.

I think Jesus may have died for standing us for what he believed. He said he was the King and also the son of God. If we went around telling that story true or not, some people would get upset. I must carry 2 forms of ID to cash a check as most people do not accept that I am who I say I am. How could I prove to them I was the son of God?

It is clearly recorded in mythology that most gods were son's of virgins and had Gods for daddies. The story of the Virgin birth seems over used.

Being 52 I have read the Bible over and over and when I get to Leviticus I am sure that I don't want to be a Christian. I have broken all the rules, I have eaten shell fish and I do not keep the Sabbath holy.

Starboy

I see. You are not judgmental, god is. It out of your hands, it is just your religion. And of course someone taught you this religion and of course you are trying to teach others, but you are not judging anyone. You have nothing to do with it. No you can sleep at night because you are only following orders and it is out of your hands.

Starboy

Biff the unclean

Now if only you had been there to tell that to the Inquisitions both Protestant and Catholic. Luther and Calvin and the College of Cardinals and let's not forget the Pope were all simply wrong.
Oooops a doodle! A few tens of thousands of people burned alive for nothing. Tsk, tsk.

miata

No matter how much we debate issues of religion I doubt we will change each other or convert anyone. I am willing to leave the judgement to judgement day.
I say that easily because I have no Idea why we are here on earth and if I said I did I would be dishonest. I am willing to take my chances and accept the fact that if I am wrong I may be tormented for eternity. I do know that if I had the power to save the world I would. If I was a god I would tell you and reveal myself as such. If I really felt God was out to get me I would be in a psy. hospital sucking my thumb.

If god was real would he be shy and leave us to our own destruction, because we are on that path to self destruction? I wish there was a loving God who wanted to save us but I don't and people hate me for being honest about that.

Having said all this how do we find a common ground with religious people and not find reasons to hate each other. I think that too many people are fighting about religion and land and I can live without either for some common ground to help end the fighting and hate that does not help anyone but hurts everyone.

If I could choose not to be born I would do so but I think my time is better spent dealing with issues that can be a potential reality. As far as life goes we all will go back to the place we came from soon enough.

I hope I am wrong but I do not think anything is supernatural. I don't even believe in luck, fate, karma or even destiny.

Starboy

As an atheist I think it would be great if everyone could live and let live. I am not sure that this is possible for a great number of religious people. It is not enough for them to have the freedom to live as they see fit, they must impose their beliefs on others that do not share their beliefs. I give you gay marriage, stem cell research, cloning, abortion, birth control, pornography, unusual sex, creation science taught in public schools, ten commandments in public buildings, god sentiments on our currency, oaths and buildings, prayers in public schools and places, and so on. For some reason it never occurs to Christians that there are non-Christians living in this country. Christians would be pissed as hell if the shoe were on the other foot and religious sentiments, laws and observances that they did not share were forced on them. If they could just learn to be civil and take the first amendment to heart it would go a long way to creating harmony between believers of all kinds and atheists. I think it would also give an example to the world of how religious harmony is achieved. Instead of what we now have in the US which is freedom of religion only if you are a Christian.

Starboy

Faith

As a Christian, I absolutely share that sentiment. Seems like we may have discovered common ground afterall.