The Evil One

Aaaaaaghhhh. Herod the Great died in 4BCE. His son Archelaus reigned until 6CE. Do try and at least get the basics right, Angela.

and no one is denying that there were such people as Magi and that they visited people on occasion. Most important people visit other important people on occasion. That's why the story was worth making up.

Alternatively, we might note that Matthew is probably making the whole thing up.

Thomas II

A comet or a meteor "hovered"?:huh:

Gundulf

But there is credible evidence that he was born somewhere else?




Come now, even if the entire story were fabricated, setting his birth in Bethelehem cannot have been the only reason for the story.

David B

It took me a while to find any confirmation of this, but there does seem to be a story that Nero does seem to have had some guests who became buddies who could fit this.

Ah, the hazards of writing in haste. Am I not right in thinking, though, that it is the later Herod is the one that can be associated with a Roman census?

Herod the Great is the only member of his family who was designated King of the Jews (by Rome), just as scripture reports.

And yes, it wasn't a stable but a house as you will find in the NRSV. Wherever they started, it took a while for them to arrive.

The magii came because they saw Jesus birth star. They believed that a star appeared at a person's birth. How they knew about the Jewish prophecies isn't clear. If they came from Babylonia, it would make sense that they knew the story because of the long Jewish captivity there. Interestingly, Herod, who claimed to be a Jew as it suited him, didn't know the story and had to go to his advisers.[/QUOTE]

Since you have to preach on the subject, perhaps you might find this website worth looking at.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/gtosiris/page9l.html

David B

angela2

That sounds to me like wishful thinking. Since you admit the historical possibility, on what grounds do you claim it was 'probably' made up?

The Evil One

1) Nativities in Luke and Matthew are completely different.
2) Therefore, at least one of them is made up.
3) Matthew has form (e.g. the Eclipse That No One Noticed, the Zombie Invasion Of Jerusalem)

4) (although, there's no reason to suppose Luke is the truth, either)

Roger Pearse

The following passage comes from a text which was excluded from the bible by the early church but has come into my possession in a 19th century copy. Unfortunately the dog ate this, but a team of scholars has reconstructed
the text and authenticated the age of the copy. A rough English translation reads as follows:

Chapter 94. And there came to Herod some of his servants, saying that there were travellers, Wise Men, come out of the East, talking about some new king. And Herod rose in haste and said "Bring these Wise Men to me at once, and do not let them stray aside to the right or the left. And particularly ensure that you let them nowhere near the WMD's where all the nuking is going on." And it was so. And Herod greeted the Wise Men, and complimented them on their work for peace.

But the first Wise Man said, "Oh king, you have not understood these things rightly. For we are Persians by nation."

And Herod said, "Aha, Iranians then and not weapons inspectors."

And there was much rejoicing, and exchanging of anti-American humour. And many a one did say unto the other, "I'll show you mine if you show me yours".

But when the merriment had abated somewhat, the Wise Men asked whither they might find the new King who had been born in Judaea. And Herod answered, "Surely you know that Judaea is a People's Democratic Republic, of which I am perpetual General Secretary, and that out-worn feudal exploiters have all been nailed head down to doors?"

Yet did the Wise Men persist, and Herod was baffled, and gathered his advisors around him. But while he did so, the Wise Men slipped out the back, giving out that they were going to a diversity seminar. And thus none saw fit to go after them and their absence was not considered unusual for a great many hours.

But when Herod understood that the Wise Men sought out a new King of the Jews, he said, "Behold! The carbon emissions of this kingdom wax exceedingly great, and even the taxes which I levy do not prevent people breathing. To save the planet and defeat global warming, it is time for some back-dated contraception."

And he summoned his chief population advisor and head of secret police, and ordered him to reduce carbon levels in Bethlehem with immediate effect. And it was so, and the people of Bethlehem wept as their children were given the opportunity to save the planet by reducing their carbon emissions in a permanent manner. Yet did the chief population advisor rebuke them, saying "Clearly you are indifferent to the needs of the planet, and selfishly acting in a manner calculated to promote global warming. Wherefore you must all apologise for your lack of eco-friendliness, and pay a special carbon levy per head of population in order to discourage further speech and thus emission of CO2." And his men with their AK-47's helped the residents understand their lack of greenness.

But meanwhile the Iranians were still looking for the King of the Jews. And they continued to follow the star in the sky with their GPS....

All the best,

Roger Pearse

The Evil One

There is no credible evidence of Jesus having been born anywhere. What we have is two developing traditions: one that he came from Nazareth, and another that he was the Messiah (which necessarily implied being born as a descendent of David in the City of David).

Luke and Matthew's nativities represent two independent attempts to reconcile those two traditions.

Luke has Jesus' parents as natives of Nazareth, who just happen to be in Bethlehem as a result of the Roman census (in 6CE) when Jesus is born.

Matthew has Jesus' parents as natives of Bethlehem, who flee from there to Egypt and then to Nazareth to avoid Herod (died 4 BCE) and his son (deposed 6CE).

quite right, there are other reasons too. Luke, for example, uses his nativity to link Jesus more closely to john the Baptist, and Matthew uses it to show off as many fulfilled prophecies as he can invent.

angela2

The historicity of the the star or story doesn't concern me much. What interests me is that this is the first account where news of Jesus' birth does not have entirely positive responses. It's ironic that Herod would have been the one to tell the Magi where to find the child.

And the fact that both the innocent Magi and Jesus are protected against Herod.

Jesus can't die as an infant. Know why? Because he must willingly embrace his death. The death of the God-man alone is not enough.

The Evil One

Erm, because stories of his doings as an adult were in wide circulation well before the nativities were written?