rhutchin

All interesting questions. The only information we have is from the Bible which tells us that God created man and put a living soul within him. Can you say with certainty that the Bible does not tell us the truth about this?

Deus Ex

Here is a couple of contradictions for you:

According to 'John', Jesus was crucified the day before the Passover meal.

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. - John 19:14-16

According to 'Mark', Jesus was crucified the day of Passover on the third hour; not the sixth hour as in 'John'.

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? -Mark 14:12

And it was the third hour, and they crucified him. -Mark 15:25

The nativity stories of Matthew and Luke are not even close to being the same. The post resurrection stories differ in significant detail between all four gospels.

If God is the true author of the Bible then he has a very high tolerance for mistakes. Here is a little more reading for you:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html

rhutchin

Let me see if I understand the problem you have here.

1. It says that Christ was led away to be crucified at the sixth hour but not crucified until the third hour. So there is an issue of the time between the leading away and the actual crucifixion. A sub issue is the manner in which the day was divided (am/pm or something else) and how sixth hour and third hour relate to this scheme.

2. We need to determine what "preparation of the passover" means and how this relates to the time when the passover meal might have been eaten at the last supper.

Are these the issues you have a problem with? Any others?

Are you making any presumptions here to get to your conclusion and can you state them up front?

show_no_mercy

The bible says that god made man out of dirt and woman out of a rib from this dirt-man. It should then follow that the only things in our bodies are the things found in dirt. However, DNA does not exist in dirt; any DNA that is in dirt is long decayed and from dead animals. There supposedly was no death when man was made, so therefore there couldn't be any DNA in dirt at the time of man's "creation". This is an obvious contradiction and couldn't have happened. Obvious contradictions are inexorably false - ergo the bible does not tell the truth about it.

Think about it - the bible was written by people just like you. However, they had even less scientific knowledge about their bodies and their surroundings. If you had to write a book about quantum physics without knowing anything about quantum physics or do research into quantum physics... what would this book look like? It would look sorta like the bible - imagination penned to paper.

Deus Ex

The problem is: According to the synoptic gospels Jesus and the Disciples ate the Last Supper as a Passover Meal; then he was crucified the next day . The gospel of 'John' has Jesus crucified on the Passover. This fits with John's need to portray Jesus as the sacrificial lamb.
An obvious contradiction.

You neglected to deal with the completely contradictory nativity stories of Matthew and Luke. I, also, supplied you with a host of New Testament Bible contradictions in the link provided in my earlier post. Are you being obtuse?
I presume the Bible to be the work of fallible human beings(no divine inspiration); which explains why there are numerous errors and contradictions in "The Good Book". If God superintended the writing of the Bible, he did a piss poor job.

Jayrok

I think concentrating on the sixth vs third hour is unproductive. It doesn't matter IOW.

The contradiction is that Jesus did indeed eat the passover meal with his disciples in Mark, Matt and Luke. But John changed the story for his personal message... that is, Jesus was himself the passover lamb.

In other words, in GJohn, the "evening meal" was NOT the passover meal. It was just a regular meal prior to Jesus going to the garden to pray before his arrest. The proof of this is in John 13:29 where "while they were eating" Jesus told Judas to do what he had to do quickly. The others didn't know what he was talking about... they thought since Judas had money that Jesus was talking about "buying supplies for the Feast". The "Feast" being passover feast which was to come another day.

In other words, the passover feast wasn't until the next day or so. This is because, to John, Jesus was the passover feast. So he had to die first. The current meal in GJohn was just the nightly meal.

In Mark, Jesus has his last passover meal with his disciples and then he goes to the garden and is arrested.

In the gospels, there are 2 separate "preparations or day of preparation". To GJohn, the preparation was for passover feast. Jesus died on the afternoon prior to this feast. To Gmark (and the others) the "day of preparation" in Mark 14:12 was the preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Passover Feast). The "other" preparation in Mark 15:42 is the "preparation for the Sabbath". The Passover Feast had already occured the night before. They were now preparing for the weekly Sabbath, even though this one was a special Sabbath because it came during the passover festival.

In GJohn the last supper was simply an evening meal. It was not the Passover Meal because, to John, Jesus was the Pascal Lamb. And as such had to die first. In the rest of the gospels, Jesus ate the passover meal with his disciples.

That is the contradiction he is referring to. You can try and spin it all you like, as many apologist try to do. But the text does not lie. GJohn had his reasons to alter the story. He is the only gospel author to call Jesus the "Lamb of God". He was the passover lamb. The other writers didn't have the same idea.

rhutchin

You seem to be assuming your conclusion. You assume that "preparation for the passover" refers to the passover meal so that you can then conclude that a contradiction exists. However an alternative rendering, and more likely, is that "preparation of the passover" refers to the temple ceremony in which the passover lamb is killed. In the documents you have read (which I have not), how did they treat the claim that "preparation of the passover" referred to the temple ceremony and not a meal?

Having listed the two issues that I thought you had raised with regard to the passover and time, I meant only additional issues related to the example you raised. Not to other issues that you might have elsewhere in the Bible. Seems that you do not (have additional issues with regard to the present example).

These seem to be two important presumptions that you make.

1. You presume that the designations "sixth" and "third" hour refers to the same system. You do not want to allow Mark to think in terms of the Jewish system of keeping time and John to use the Roman system (if there were differences as Bible commentaries allege).

2. You presume that "preparation of the passover" refers to a meal and not to the temple ceremony in which a lamb was slain (even though the Bible commentaries make this distinction).

I think these are significant presumptions that you make, and must make, in order to arrive at your conclusion that an error has been made. You follow the methods of others who are anxious to find error in the Bible.

rhutchin

This is not a contradiction. That the synoptics refer to the passover meal while John (seeking to identify Christ with the pascal lamb) refers to those preparations for the killing of the pascal lamb does not create a contradiction. At least, I don't see it.

You make an important presumption that underlies your analysis. It is that "preparation for the passover" refers to a meal and not to the temple ceremony in which the pascal lamb is slain. You should state that presumption up front.

Jayrok

The contradiction is not the term used. The contradicion is that in the synoptic gospels Jesus sits with his disciples during the passover meal and is killed the next day. In GJohn Jesus is killed the day before the evening of the passover meal. John has Jesus killed a day later than the synoptics.


That is irrelevent. "Preparation for passover" could include buying the lamb, standing in line at the Temple courts for the priests to kill it, skin it and return it to the disciples, going back to make sure all leaven is removed from the house for the bread, and so on. The point is all this was done in the synoptics before Jesus was arrested. He participated in the passover meal with his disciples where he said "Take this cup...... in remembrance of me". He then went to pray and was arrested.

This "Lord's Supper" scene does not appear in GJohn because it would have occured after Jesus' death since John claims Jesus died on the day of preparation for passover, which would have been the afternoon of the 14th day of the month.

rhutchin

How do you conclude, "In GJohn Jesus is killed the day before the evening of the passover meal."

John also has:

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31)

John clearly has Jesus crucified on the Friday that preceded the Saturday sabbath. That puts the passover meal prior to the crucifixion and on Thursday evening (the beginning of passover would be at 6:00 pm). The passover meal would not have occurred on Friday evening following the passover activities and on the sabbath (which would have begun at 6:00 pm on Friday).

Your reading of John is not correct and cannot be correct given the information provided.

You are arbitrarily restricting "preparation for the passover" to mean something that it does not. When John says, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,..." he cannot have in mind preparation of the passover meal as that would put the passover meal on Friday evening (the beginning of the sabbath) and after passover day.