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Old 03-16-2013, 06:37 PM   #131
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Hi Spin, here is what you said that supposedly gave an answer about the Sabbath of Lev 23:15:

Now, how is it that I can't read your answer when you remain silent about Judaism's belief that Lev 23:15 is a Sabbath, the Sabbath of Nissan 15.
I guess it's your unwillingness.

How can I hold your hand on this one, Ken Brown? If you won't read what I said, it should say that you won't read other things I say on the subject. Look at the bolded section of my statement again. Ponder on it for a bit and let it resonate in your mind. Add to the mix a verb שבת shabat, "to observe or keep (the sabbath)", which has a derived noun, שבתון shabbaton "observance". So sabbath sabbaton is sabbath observance. It does not mean "sabbath". When you've processed that and shown you have understood it, perhaps we can continue, because there is a little more.

Your world is rather limited, isn't it? Perhaps you might be scared of such things, but I don't live in your strange world.

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Oh and does anyone think that Ken Brown will admit that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about the sabbath? But then his whole house of cards will collapse.
Now plainly, you have avoided the fact that the definition of unleavened bread does not contain a reference to a sabbath at all. All your rubbish about sabbaths is a red herring because you have no sabbath mentioned in Lev 23:5-8. There is only mention of a miqra, a "holy convocation". You've been bullshitting for quite some time, because ultimately you know that you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.
Hi Spin, you have exposed your error again. You say that ONLY a mention of a "miqra" (a holy convocation) is connected with Feast days of Unleavened Bread, but the unmitigated Truth is that there is ALSO a REST/Ceasing from work, just like on the weekly Sabbath. When the jaws of reason clamp down on a shackled, irrational mind, the outcome is evident to all who observe. KB
Still the same logical fallacy: all dogs have four legs and all cats have four legs so all dogs are cats.

Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:48 PM   #132
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Hi Spin, you have exposed your error again. You say that ONLY a mention of a "miqra" (a holy convocation) is connected with Feast days of Unleavened Bread, but the unmitigated Truth is that there is ALSO a REST/Ceasing from work, just like on the weekly Sabbath. When the jaws of reason clamp down on a shackled, irrational mind, the outcome is evident to all who observe. KB
Still the same logical fallacy: all dogs have four legs and all cats have four legs so all dogs are cats.

Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.
Hi Spin, here again your error is exposed. Lev 23:11 states that the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave the sheaf of Firstfruits. Judaism has determined that this Sabbath in which the wave sheaf is waved on the morrow after, is the Sabbath of Nissan 15, the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. KB
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:58 PM   #133
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:huh: You need to read the argument I posted, based on the specific terms used in v.23, Dave.

[T2]'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake [of the mana] and boil what you want to boil [of the quail]. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'[/T2]
When does tomorrow start here, Dave? Did it start in the evening? If so, why does the text talk about keeping the food until the morning? Focus.

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Spin,

You know that this passage is about baking & boiling the manna that miraculously sprung up in the wilderness trek, don't you?
(RSV Exo 16:11-20) 11 And the LORD said to Moses,
12 "I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, `At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'"
13 In the evening quails came up and covered the camp; and in the morning dew lay round about the camp.
14 And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.

15 When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, "It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.
16 This is what the LORD has commanded: `Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of the persons whom each of you has in his tent.'"
17 And the people of Israel did so; they gathered, some more, some less.
18 But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat.
19 And Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it till the morning."
20 But they did not listen to Moses; some left part of it [i.e., the manna] till the morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.
Isn't this rather a lesson to the Israelites not to gather more than just an omer of mana for each individual each morning? Gathering more than enough mana was fruitless as the heat of the day melted it and by the next day it had rotted. When God miraculously provides a double portion of mana on the 6th day, however, he also miraculously preserves it fresh to the 7th day.

The quail (mentioned first, BTW) are harvested in the evening ( בעֶ֔רֶב "evening") and the mana (mentioned second) in the morning ( בֹּ֗קֶר "morning").

The "day" ( הַיּ֔וֹם ) is a period of time, most often used for what we might say is a 24hr period. It will have both an evening & a morning in whatever order you want to use.

day of week, morning epoch morning evening
1st mana (omer each) quail (caught in nets?)
2nd mana (omer each) quail (caught in nets?)
3rd mana (omer each) quail (caught in nets?)
4th mana (omer each) quail (caught in nets?)
5th mana (omer each) quail (caught in nets?)
6th mana (2 omers each) quail (caught in nets?)
7th Yes, we have no man(an)ah to-daay♫ Not stated
     
day of week, evening epoch evening morning
1st quail (caught in nets?) mana (omer each)
2nd quail (caught in nets?) mana (omer each)
3rd quail (caught in nets?) mana (omer each)
4th quail (caught in nets?) mana (omer each)
5th quail (caught in nets?) mana (omer each)
6th quail (caught in nets?) mana (2 omers each)
7th Not stated Yes, we have no man(an)ah to-daay♫


I don't think that it makes any difference if you assume evening or morning epoch.

DCH

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... I'd like to return to when the day started in early Jewish tradition. Ken Brown seems to think against the textual indications I've already provided that the Jews always had a day which started in the evening. This is not so. To demonstrate this once again, let's look at [COLOR="Red"]Ex 16:
21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the Lord commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake [of the mana] and boil what you want to boil [of the quail]. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat it today," Moses said [on the sabbath], "because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."
Here on the sixth day we see the preparation of food for the sabbath. It was cooked the day before because no cooking was allowed on the sabbath. It was to be left until the morning and miraculously there were no maggots. It wasn't prepared for evening consumption as one would expect for a day starting in the evening, but for consumption on a day that started in the morning. The day ran from morning to morning as all indications I've posted this far have shown.

Ken Brown needs the day to start in the evening otherwise he cannot make his faith-based argument work.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:02 PM   #134
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I am having a hard time following what this argument is exactly about. Is Ken really arguing that the day after Passover is ALWAYS a Sabbath? Really?

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Why would Judaism believe the day after Passover (1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) is a Sabbath, and you do not?
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:06 PM   #135
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I keep looking at the material. What is it that Ken thinks it says. Lev. 23:8 = what the Jews call the seventh day of Passover and what the Samaritans call the seventh day of the feast of Unleavened Bread.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:08 PM   #136
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I am having a hard time following what this argument is exactly about. Is Ken really arguing that the day after Passover is ALWAYS a Sabbath? Really?

Quote:
Why would Judaism believe the day after Passover (1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) is a Sabbath, and you do not?
Hi Stephan, I'm sorry you are having a difficult time. Judaism has determined that the Sabbath they count from for Shavuot, and the Sabbath that they wave the sheaf of firstfruits on the morrow after, is the Sabbath of Nissan 15, the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why is this so hard for you to grasp Stephan? KB
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:09 PM   #137
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Hi Spin, you have exposed your error again. You say that ONLY a mention of a "miqra" (a holy convocation) is connected with Feast days of Unleavened Bread, but the unmitigated Truth is that there is ALSO a REST/Ceasing from work, just like on the weekly Sabbath. When the jaws of reason clamp down on a shackled, irrational mind, the outcome is evident to all who observe. KB
Still the same logical fallacy: all dogs have four legs and all cats have four legs so all dogs are cats.

Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.
Hi Spin, here again your error is exposed. Lev 23:11 states that the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave the sheaf of Firstfruits. Judaism has determined that this Sabbath in which the wave sheaf is waved on the morrow after, is the Sabbath of Nissan 15, the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. KB
I will take your avoidance of the facts as an admission that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about sabbaths. That's why you want to talk about anything but Lev 23:5-8. Now that we have established that there is nothing about sabbaths in Lev 23:5-8, your dating of the death of Jesus to a supposed high sabbath for the first of unleavened bread is shown to be a sham.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:11 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
I am having a hard time following what this argument is exactly about. Is Ken really arguing that the day after Passover is ALWAYS a Sabbath? Really?

Quote:
Why would Judaism believe the day after Passover (1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) is a Sabbath, and you do not?
Hi Stephan, I'm sorry you are having a difficult time. Judaism has determined that the Sabbath they count from for Shavuot, and the Sabbath that they wave the sheaf of firstfruits on the morrow after, is the Sabbath of Nissan 15, the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why is this so hard for you to grasp Stephan? KB
After failing to change the subject with me, Ken Brown is now trolling with Stephan to whip up support for his change of subject.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:12 PM   #139
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Hi Stephan, I'm sorry you are having a difficult time. Judaism has determined that the Sabbath they count from for Shavuot, and the Sabbath that they wave the sheaf of firstfruits on the morrow after, is the Sabbath of Nissan 15, the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why is this so hard for you to grasp Stephan?
But what does this have to do with Leviticus 23:5 - 8?
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:18 PM   #140
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Hi Spin, here again your error is exposed. Lev 23:11 states that the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave the sheaf of Firstfruits. Judaism has determined that this Sabbath in which the wave sheaf is waved on the morrow after, is the Sabbath of Nissan 15, the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. KB
I will take your avoidance of the facts as an admission that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about sabbaths. That's why you want to talk about anything but Lev 23:5-8. Now that we have established that there is nothing about sabbaths in Lev 23:5-8, your dating of the death of Jesus to a supposed high sabbath for the first of unleavened bread is shown to be a sham.
Hi Spin, you state this:

Quote:
Spin's Challenge:
Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.
And I show there is a mention of a Sabbath in Lev 23:11 that clearly is in reference to the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why are you in denial? KB
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