whichphilosophy

Really these are grey areas because there is no scientific model to prove or disprove how we come about or are reborn etc.

crocodile deathroll

Not really because they do happen, the old Mandlebrot set is just one such emergent pattern. Albeit a mathematical one. Other more physical patterns are snow crystals not to mention nucleo-synthesis of carbon, which is totally necessary for life as we know it and not superfluous at all. What's more they are all self organizing systems that do away with an intelligent designer.

One thing I do not buy is notion of punishment after death either for bad Karma or sin. I find it silly to assume that there would be an old man waiting for you are the other side with lot of ticks and crosses beside your name and depending on how you conducted your life in this world you would either be sent to heaven, hell or return to Earth as a termite or a spoilt Tibetan spaniel.
IMO if reincarnation is true then it would be completely random selection for you and your moral conduct this life has nothing to do with it. It may have be highly relevant for a safe and stable society as I am more of a utilitarian who believes it's in our interest to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, but not our nature of existence after death. So as for seeking rewards for in the afterlife, forget it.

CDR

harishsubramanian

if we are to accept that soul can reincarnate in any kind of body,be it a huiman,an animal or a single cell( there are people like aurobindo who claim that every cell is intelligent in its own way),we may be able to see that the increase in human population is no big deal,arent there a lot of higher order animals which have almost become extinct in population,as human population has grown.the whales ,the tiger,the lions,the primates,are all very intelligent.On the other hand it remains to be proven,that humans have become more intelligent.humans have more knowledge of the world,does that mean they are more intelligent today.the birds know more about weather than any human,does that mean,they are more intelligent than humans?

Yeshi

CDR, you are here on predominantly Indian-thought thread.

For several THOUSANDS of years these issues have been discussed on the subcontinent by top minds. And everyone settled with the notion/insight that karma works and is a natural law governing unfoldment of consciousness.

But it works more as a mechanism of self-restriction or binding: "tending to the flowers its smell enriches your clothes" is japanese proverb. In the same vein, the things you do, define your stance or view of the world, and this is purely materialistic approach, shared by buddhism as well.

I do not intend to be argumentative as everyone is entitled to own free will and unique outlook of the issues, but explainiing the basics is tedious. On other threads there are people that do not grasp the basics of quantum physics or relativity, but that is not a reason to either like or dislike them

----

I was -actually- about to describe the notions of quantum mind and the 'implications', but the subject is too complex to describe lightly. Dankomed and Schneibster (DHQE thread) have set me off in new direction regarding the consciousness structure/laws. And this seems to be much compatible with buddhist abhidharma (metaphysics) which is probably shared with advaita;

The key is the panpsychism of the Universe: wherever there is an energy, it is represented as a wave formulation. Wherever there is a wave, there is its statistical collapse into a matter particle, which depends on conscious influence (interpretations might vary between Copenhagen and Transactional interpretations).

So we end up with triple universe: mind-energy-matter (as in buddhism). The unfoldment from non-temporal principle of Dharmakaya happens with formulation of light (Electromagnetic wave) which coagulates into matter depending on mind choices. In the domain of energy and matter, the electromagnetic arrow of time makes it a 3.5D Einsteinian universe, but the determination of the (mandala) unfoldment is through atemporal 'dark energy' space of advanced handshake waves which are represented as cosmological constant of the brooding universe and represent 'all our minds and their potentials' or the 'field of all possibiliities'.

Or thereabouts. Sorry for being unprecise, might come later to polish it

Sign Related

Reincarnation: Rebirth of the soul in another body.

^^^What the hell is the soul without 'the self'? Rebirth of the soul in my book is reconfiguration of the soul. In levels is this so.

There be:

the self
the soul
the body

^^each are seperate (distinct) and combined by rules. Even as combined they are seperated too. Or else, there would be one human being ever.

The self is the main entity. The self is as a carpenter and in some cases was as a carpenter and is no longer. Every carpenter (self) uses tools...in this case the soul is as all the tools in general needed for 'the self' so that 'the self' might plant, build, and be merry unto a body.

Some of us, self wise, are barely and hardly standing here in this world... whereas others are standing here fixed because this place is deeply rooted of themselves as they've literally married this world. As for concerning the tools (hoes) of this place as Pac said "God blessed the bumb bitches that trust these hoes" on the song called "Good Life". I tell you the truth, only the devils committed themselves here in this world by trusting the soul that's maintaining this world here for ever.

Paraprakrti

If reincarnation is true then there must be some factors involved that determine what species one will dwell in their next life. Actually, in the Shastra it explains that there are 3 modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. As well, there are certain species that fit into each category. Another factor has to do with the particular species abilities. For example, let us say that a man lives in the mode of passion and he dreams of flying all the time. Now, assuming that birds are in the mode of passion (of which I am not sure) this man may take birth in a bird family. Reincarnation pertains to consciousness and karma in the material modes of nature, according to Shastra. Also, it is said that the soul transmigrates from one species to the next, moving upward in developed consciousness. Then at the human form of life the soul has the opportunity to transcend repeated birth and death. If the human facility is not used in this way then the soul may go back down to a lesser intelligent species, or it may go upward into the realm of the demigods where the duration of life is much longer (though still finite) and there is a higher degree of material pleasure. As long as the soul remains under this material energy it will be tossed around, sometimes in a confortable position and sometimes in an uncomfortable position. The remedy for all that is to transcend karma by transcending the material modes of nature. How to do that is described in the Bhagavad-Gita. What is morally "good" is simply a method for attaining the enlightenment of knowing God and one's relationship to Him, but in itself it is not a means for liberation from material suffering. Even the Bible explains that good works do not promote one to the spiritual kingdom. The same principle is here, though it is explained in much more depth.

Paraprakrti

This is a question that can be speculated on until oblivion. "How do we really know that animals are less intelligent?" Well, we are inclined to believe so by our empiric study, but beside this there is information in the Shastra (Vedic Scripture) that explains the other forms of life on this planet to be less intelligent than humans. Humans have the capacity to understand God and the soul's relationship to Him, whereas animals don't generally have that capacity (according to our perception and to the verdict of the Vedas). This capacity is what may be constituted as intelligence. According to Shastra, the animals act in the material modes of nature until the soul is eventually promoted to the form of human wherein it has the potential to transcend the material modes altogether.

Paraprakrti

According to eastern religion and philosophy, the soul is the self. Soul = self = main entity. That self is spiritual, not material. The soul (or self) is covered by a material body that inhibits its natural state of existence. That material body, according to the Vedas, can be categorized in two parts: the gross, physical body and the subtle, mental body. Both are products of the material modes of nature whereas the soul itself is part and parcel of the eternal spiritual God. Somehow or other the soul desired to seek enjoyment apart from God's pure association and so out of ignorance the soul suffers false attachment by identifying itself with the material energy and the interactions thereof. This identification is called "false ego". The material elements go like this, from subtle to gross:
false ego, intelligence, mind, ether, air, fire, water and earth.
The soul is in sort of a dormant state when it engages the subtle body in perceiving and enjoying the interactions made between the gross senses and the objects experiences by the senses. Some people equate the mind to the soul, but that is not the fact. Consciousness is the symptom of the soul but that symptom is distorted through the material energy. The mind is one layer of distortion, it is not the soul itself. Though, it does show evidence of the soul.

premjan

IMO The "eternal" nature or soul of the Bhagavad Gita is just a grandiose speculation, and stuff like the Trikaya is a somewhat more analytical version of the same speculative fallacy. Basically death is a boundary value of the human organism and it is only natural that we speculate about it (some are even willing to believe that some unique individuals can rise up again after being mutilated and killed). Lots and lots of Indian philosophy is based on vague speculations about ultimate substances. I think these belong in the same category as speculation about the existence of an ether or a cosmological constant, or dark matter. Basically IM(H)O they show more about the limits of the current ideas than about any actual entity. A lot of this stuff is basically kind of archaic psychology. There is a physical body, and an "enjoyment" or sensual or emotional part to the brain, and then a symbolic or "eternal" part which contains trasmissible and recordible ideas.

Paraprakrti

What is this "speculative fallacy"? Particularly, what makes it a fallacy?