Greeph

What do you guys think of this generalization:

Christian: Love,Hope,Faith
Agnostic: Love,Hope
Athiest: Love

I realize this is inaccurate and vague. Just want it to show a train of thought. I am sure some Agnostics would object to having hope. And perhaps some athiests would object to not having hope. And hope in what, etc etc, yes yes. Please don't take this literally, it is a generalization to clarify my question which follows --

Is loss of hope is in my path to maturity? Once I've left my faith behind, can't I keep my hope? Can't I be agnostic and still hope (not believe) with all my heart that Jehovah is God, Jesus is his "special son", and there is eternal happiness in heaven? Or will I lose this hope next, as I have the faith. Only then to remain hoping (not believing) that surely there is still some type of a god which I can leave unattributed, and remain hoping that my existence is eternal and good? Will I lose this newly forming hope next? And just be left with love? Will I then be mature and well balanced? Will I just have love left to grant meaning to my existence? Surely there aren't those who would require to lose love next?

captainpabst

Wow Greeph, welcome to the boards. I'm sure many will have something to say about this, but I can offer my perspective.

I consider myself an agnostic when faced with the question "does God exist" and an atheist when faced with the question "is there a singular deity of some sort (ie, Xian)." Of the three conditions you mention, I still claim love and hope. I claim love because I believe it is the best bet, through human empathy, to do the most good for the most people - to be as tolerant of others as possible, and to remain a humble and honest person the rest of my days. I claim hope for something more than this limited existence because, frankly, why not? Who wouldn't hope that there is something more than this? Some may consider that fanciful, and sometimes I myself do, but that doesn't make it totally pointless. It doesn't mean that I'm going to be swept up in irrational, illogical supernatural explanations of the world and its origins, but it does mean that I will entertain the interesting musings that enter my imagination concerning the unknown. It also means I have an avenue to embrace art, music and literature - all of which are non-literal communication of our deepest human realities. Music is my life, and no amount of rational thought will explain my irrational love of that art - that avenue of expression. I suppose it is through music that I find my "god," such that it is.

If you are newly deconverted - give it time. You may want to attend a Unitarian-Universalist service or read some liberal spiritualists like John Spong to reassure yourself that a sense of purpose and reverence need not be totally obliterated with the shattering of a limited paradigm such as Christianity. There are people who care, and there is still meaning in the world. The good news is that you are free to determine for yourself what means the most to you, and also to determine how to best pursue that personal meaning. You might want to visit the secular lifestyle and support form for more encouragement. Peace!

foxjazz

I struggle with it myself sometimes, that is why I enjoy reading the forums to get affirmation that it is reasonable to not have a belief in God-s...

I have a "concept of God" or Gods, but no real situational belief.

I have recently become involved with a wonderful female, who was married to a Greek Orthodox priest. She is a wonderful and understanding person, who I think is in the process of deconverting.

Peace here on earth however is the main objective, and I think we can have peace in our little pockets of life, which is truely wonderful.

I don't seem to "need a meditation exercise " or a get under control exercise. I am humble, I know myself pretty well, and know my limitations. I know what I like. I am secure in my life, and don't need to 1 up anyone.

However, as I grow older towards my 40's and I talk with people that are older than I, I am astounded at how irrational they are about life. Particularly Christianity. It is clear to me that anyone that is religious about anything (faith) is just plain dishonest, and I don't have respect for dishonesty.

Life is really simple when you think about it, its the stupid humans that make it complicated.

Gota sign now,
Fox

Starboy

How about this:

Christian: Blind obedience, Hate, Love of Death
Agnostic: Questions
Atheists: Enlightenment, Hope, Love of Life

Starboy

Greeph

Fair enough. Although I am surprised you would eliminate faith as a christian characteristic. Or perhaps you mean that in general most who call themselves christians don't even have faith, but just blindly follow what they've been taught? And I don't know too many that I would characterize as hateful (perhaps judgemental, but hateful?). And I don't know too many that look forward to death (perhaps there is lipservice to the idea). But I can see that you are also posing a "progression of growth" as I was attempting to do.

I would appreciate if you could elaborate on both the Enlightenment and Hope? I am assuming the "Love of Life" means that the athiest is free to enjoy life to its fullest without religion-imposed boundaries, and that the emphasis is on "this life" instead of "the next life".

How would you characterize your hope? I know that this is vague, so take it however you prefer. But a couple of questions about it specifically, do you have hope for your "consciousness" (as you know it) to remain intact after your death? If yes, to what extent does this affect your life before death? If no, to what extent does this affect your life before death? Would you characterize such a hope as a healthy or unhealthy characteristic for a person?

Starboy

Come now Greeph, it is blind obedience to god. As for the hate, that is a common motif of Christians and theists in general. Now of course they hide it by saying things like hate the sin and not the sinner, but it is hate all the same and even if they try to no hate a person by coining such a trite phrases there is no avoiding that they do hate the sinner. After all it is the sinner that sins. As for the love of death, it is one of the main preoccupations of theists, Christians in particular. You see they spend a lot of time preparing for it and fearing the judgment that will result. Also just watch a few minutes of the passion and tell me if there is not a gruesome, morbid preoccupation with death by Christians.

It was the Enlightenment that brought us democracy, freedom from the tyranny of the supposedly god appointed ruler and the minions of god believers, it also brought us science. All of this brought hope because it opened up the possibility that man could do more than just grin and bear his fate. As for the love of life, well that is obvious. If this is all you got then you will treasure it. It is those that think that there is something more for infinity that can be easily goaded into discounting their own life and the lives of others as nothing to be concerned with.

As for my hope, it is an optimistic kind of hope. It is based on the thought that perhaps we could figure all this out, that we could actually improve our plight and do it ourselves. You have to admit it is just plain amazing how much we have figured out to date.

Starboy

Greeph

Thanks for the further explanation Starboy. Most of it I can agree with.

But there were a couple of specific questions that you left unanswered. I think you answered indirectly, so I understand if you choose not to reply.

These are the questions that preoccupy my mind the most at this point in time. I would really like to get yours and other atheists' opinions (as well as agnostics) on the question, I'll repaste it here:

How would you characterize your hope? I know that this is vague, so take it however you prefer. But a couple of questions about it specifically, do you have hope for your "consciousness" (as you know it) to remain intact after your death? If yes, to what extent does this affect your life before death? If no, to what extent does this affect your life before death? Would you characterize such a hope as a healthy or unhealthy characteristic for a person?

Thanks!

Starboy

I must admit that I do not understand exactly where you are coming from. I do not see my consciousness as being a static thing. It is more like a flame or a fire, a process, a journey. Where I am now is not where I have been. It has been a long time since I was a kid. I have memories of that time but the person I was then is gone. It is not the person I am now. It is a natural progression of life. I do not expect my consciousness to survive death because it has not really survived life. I think it is natural for a person to be afraid of death. It is easy to observe this. Just be in a car full of people who have almost died in a terrible auto accident. There will not be a person in the bunch (unless they were asleep or already dazed) that will not have an extreme emotional reaction to this event. It is part of the way we are. To ignore this in trying to understand our existence is like trying to finish a jig saw puzzle without all the pieces.

As for conciousness before life, all I can say is that no one, including myself was aware of 'my' conciousness before they knew that I exisisted. It is kind of a silly question.

Starboy

joedad

My experience has been that faith, hope and love are areligious, although seemingly like yourself, they were once associated exclusively with religious idealism. They are today necessary and resultant human social conventions and/or concepts that exist independent of religious belief. They are also culturally indistinct.

In a more mundane sense they are solutions looking for a problem. I like to apply them to my vision of the human future, which is presently quite positive.

More directly, I have "no hope" that my individual consciousness will outlive me. That said, I have "no doubt" that a collective human future awaits, one in which I can rediscover where, what and how "I" used to be. It's quite comforting actually, and it doesn't necessitate any form of religious or philosophical nihilism.

quartodeciman

"Faith" really means "fidelity", as in "keeping the faith". Are agnostics and atheists really without fidelity to anyone or anything?