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la70119 · 05-09-2012, 09:53 AM

Aye, grog and aa5874. Even more, gMark patterns his passion account also after the triumph that imperators received after their victory over enemy generals. Josephus describes Vespasian's triumph in Jewish War 7.5.3 through 7.5.6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblical Archaeological Review

To summarize Mark’s narrative as now decoded: The praetorian guard gathers early in the morning to proclaim the triumphator. They dress him in the purple triumphal garb and place a crown of laurel on his head. The soldiers shout in acclamation of his lordship (“Hail, King of the Jews” [Mark 15:18]) and perform acts of homage to him. They accompany him through the streets of the city. The sacrifice walks alongside a person who carries the implement of the victim’s death. The procession ascends to the place of the (death’s) head, where the sacrifice is to take place. The triumphator is offered ceremonial wine. He does not drink it but pours it out on the altar at the moment of sacrifice. Then, at the moment of being lifted up before the people, at the moment of the sacrifice, the triumphator is again acclaimed as lord (“The King of the Jews” [Mark 15:26]), and his viceregents appear with him in confirmation of his glory. The epiphany of the triumphator is accompanied by divine portents (“The curtain of the Temple was torn in two” [Mark 15:38]), confirming that he is one with the gods.

http://www.bib-arch.org/online-exclusives/easter-05.asp

And the ones who were aside Vespasian in the triumph after the Jewish War? Titus and Domitian. (Jewish War 7.5.5.152)

Now if we compare with the "triumphal procession" from the Praetorium to Capitoline Hill the place called Goglotha.

gMark 15

Quote:

16 The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers. 17 They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. 18 And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” 19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. 20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him.

21 A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross. 22 They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 23 Then they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it. 24 And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.

25 It was the third hour when they crucified him. 26 The written notice of the charge against him read: the king of the jews. 27 They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left. 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 come down from the cross and save yourself!”

31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

33 At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”

36 One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Sone of God!”

outhouse · 05-09-2012, 10:01 AM

any attempt to tie josephas as a source for GMark has failed miserably due to the sheer imagination required to make it fly.

It disregards what is known about the earliest documents, and varied sources.

la70119 · 05-09-2012, 10:20 AM

Earliest documents? Okay, show them.

outhouse · 05-09-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Earliest documents? Okay, show them.

just do a search yourself for early versions of GMark

heck you can even use later scripture, it hasnt changed enough.

la70119 · 05-09-2012, 11:05 AM

Early versions of gMark?

I got back verious articles on the canonical version and its evolution, plus this:

Early copy of the gospel of Mark is a forgery.

Quote:

A clever bit of detective work by US scholars and scientists has proven that one of the jewels of the University of Chicago’s manuscript collection is, in fact, a skilled late 19th- or early 20th-century forgery.

Although speculation as to the authenticity of the Archaic Mark codex has been rife for more than 60 years, prior to this definitive research many believed it was an early record (possibly as early as the 14th century) of the Gospel of Mark and the closest of any extant manuscript to the world’s oldest Greek Bible—the fourth-century Codex Vaticanus.

The earliest record of Archaic Mark dates to 1917 when it was listed among the possessions of recently deceased Athenian antiquities dealer and collector John Askitopoulos.

outhouse · 05-09-2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Early versions of gMark?

I got back verious articles on the canonical version and its evolution, plus this:

Early copy of the gospel of Mark is a forgery.

Quote:

A clever bit of detective work by US scholars and scientists has proven that one of the jewels of the University of Chicago’s manuscript collection is, in fact, a skilled late 19th- or early 20th-century forgery.

Although speculation as to the authenticity of the Archaic Mark codex has been rife for more than 60 years, prior to this definitive research many believed it was an early record (possibly as early as the 14th century) of the Gospel of Mark and the closest of any extant manuscript to the world’s oldest Greek Bible—the fourth-century Codex Vaticanus.

The earliest record of Archaic Mark dates to 1917 when it was listed among the possessions of recently deceased Athenian antiquities dealer and collector John Askitopoulos.

this is well known, and has nothing to do with the earliest copies in existance.

la70119 · 05-09-2012, 11:17 AM

Well I'm not getting much in my search. Just more exposition on the canonical version and two items on Codex Bobbiensis.

This one

and

this one.

aa5874 · 05-09-2012, 11:38 AM

It is clear that the author of gMark MOST likely used the 18th book of 'Antiquities of the Jews' written c 93 CE.

In short-ending gMark, the earliest Canonised Jesus story, it is claimed Jesus was REVIVED in Mark 16.6 and in again in the 18th book of Antiquities it is claimed the Pharisee believed in the resurrection.

Antiquities of the Jews 18.1.3

Quote:

They also believe that souls have an immortal rigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again

The earliest Canonised gMark used the 18th book of Antiquities.

Antiquities of the Jews 18.5.1

Quote:

So Herod wrote about these affairs to Tiberius, who being very angry at the attempt made by Aretas, wrote to Vitellius to make war upon him, and either to take him alive, and bring him to him in bonds, or to kill him, and send him his head.[

Sinaiticus gMark 6

Quote:

25 And coming in immediately with haste to the king, she asked, saying: I will that thou at once give me in a dish the head of John the Baptist.

The short-ending gMark is based on the works of Josephus and was written AFTER C 93 CE.

outhouse · 05-09-2012, 12:15 PM

Codex Vaticanus at around 300 AD, closely followed by Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph) dated at around 350 AD.

and search for Qmran, 7Q5

la70119 · 05-09-2012, 12:32 PM

C. Vaticanus and C. Sinaiticus both postdate P45 and the (long since lost) first copy of Codex Bobbiensis.

I have seen Qumran 7Q5; it is merely a scrap.

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05-09-2012, 10:01 AM	#12
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	any attempt to tie josephas as a source for GMark has failed miserably due to the sheer imagination required to make it fly. It disregards what is known about the earliest documents, and varied sources.

05-09-2012, 10:20 AM	#13
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	Earliest documents? Okay, show them.

05-09-2012, 11:17 AM	#17
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	Well I'm not getting much in my search. Just more exposition on the canonical version and two items on Codex Bobbiensis. This one and this one.

05-09-2012, 12:15 PM	#19
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Codex Vaticanus at around 300 AD, closely followed by Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph) dated at around 350 AD. and search for Qmran, 7Q5

05-09-2012, 12:32 PM	#20
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	C. Vaticanus and C. Sinaiticus both postdate P45 and the (long since lost) first copy of Codex Bobbiensis. I have seen Qumran 7Q5; it is merely a scrap.

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