Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 03-25-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Didn't find anything except discussion about walls and fences... and Herod and the Hammoredians and some young girl

Did you search "Job never existed"? That will take you to the right part. Here is some of the discussion:

One of the rabbis was sitting before R. Samuel b. Na'hmeni and said: Job never existed; and is mentioned in the Scripture only for an example. Said he to him: The Scripture is against your theory, as it states plainly [Job, i. 1]: "There was a man," etc. But according to your theory it is also written [II Sam. xii. 3]: "But the poor man had nothing," etc. Was it so in reality? It was written only for an example! The same may be said concerning Job? If it were so, why, then, his name and the name of the country he came from?

R. Johanan and R. Elazar both said that Job was among the ancestors of the Babylonian exiles; and his college was in Tiberias.

No Robots · 03-25-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Christianity's core doctrines can NEVER allign with that of its claimed attachment to its mother religion.

Christ was a Jew, his religion was and remained the Jewish; and if now we Jews protest – more thoroughly protestant than under you – against the entire Christianity, against the Augustinian-Thomist and against the Augustinian-Lutheran Christianity and against all and each type of Christianity, old and new? How, if we protest in the name of Christ, in the name of the real Christianity of Christ because this is the real Judaism? More powerful today is our protest than ever formerly. Today Judaism protests no longer without Christ, but rather Judaism with Christ; today Christianity protests against Christianity: our true Christianity, i.e. the real Judaism of us real Jews against your false Christianity. We come to the point of saying that we alone are Christians, as soon as we want – and come to it also through what we did not want and do not want: through our renunciation, through our passion story and via dolorosa! We are Christians as soon as we give this doctrine of Jesus and the apostles its true Jewish interpretation and clarify its place.—Constantin Brunner / "Speech to the Jews: We want him back!", p. 434. In Der Judenhass und die Juden: 428-509. My translation.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Didn't find anything except discussion about walls and fences... and Herod and the Hammoredians and some young girl

Did you search "Job never existed"? That will take you to the right part. Here is some of the discussion:

One of the rabbis was sitting before R. Samuel b. Na'hmeni and said: Job never existed; and is mentioned in the Scripture only for an example. Said he to him: The Scripture is against your theory, as it states plainly [Job, i. 1]: "There was a man," etc. But according to your theory it is also written [II Sam. xii. 3]: "But the poor man had nothing," etc. Was it so in reality? It was written only for an example! The same may be said concerning Job? If it were so, why, then, his name and the name of the country he came from?

R. Johanan and R. Elazar both said that Job was among the ancestors of the Babylonian exiles; and his college was in Tiberias.

OK "Job's age was from the time Israel came to Egypt until the time he left it. Read: As many years as the Israelites were in Egypt." Why not "Read: whatever makes you happy."
I got a problem with this. The first line clearly is referring to Jacob. The second line Mishnas it into something completely different. Jacob never left Egypt, at least not on his own... his body returned.

A couple of old coots arguing "on the one hand" ... "yes but on the other hand"... "yes but on the other hand"... "yes but on the other hand"... "hey we are out of hands!"

They seem to be arguing all facets of the diamond without mentioning the sparkle.

No Robots · 03-25-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

A couple of old coots arguing "on the one hand" ... "yes but on the other hand"... "yes but on the other hand"... "yes but on the other hand"... "hey we are out of hands!"

They seem to be arguing all facets of the diamond without mentioning the sparkle.

Like I said, mythicists and historicists squabbling goes way back.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 10:17 AM

When did Christianity reverse it perverse accusation of the Jews for killing Jesus... Nostra Aetate, early 1960s. The Romans killed Jesus. Read it, it is in your Bible. There is no argument. Crucifixion was a Roman death penalty. Had the Jews killed Jesus they would have stoned him. If you think Rome cared one way or another about who Jerusalem executed or imprisoned... think again. To Rome, the only good Jew was a rich one or a dead one.

Quote:

btw, When did Jewish people ever deny killing Jesus or conspiring to have him killed? When did Jewish rabbi's ever deny there was a Jesus the Jewish militant? They may have hated him but when have they denied Jesus was a Jew? Let's see, it's been how long now, 2000 years? Where is the Jewish decree stating that "there was never a Jesus the Jew?" Maybe if we can get this out of the way, then proving Christianity an illegitimate construct will be much more simple. You think?

When did you ever deny killing Jesus or conspiring to kill him?

razlyubleno · 03-25-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

A couple of old coots arguing "on the one hand" ... "yes but on the other hand"... "yes but on the other hand"... "yes but on the other hand"... "hey we are out of hands!"

Best description of Talmud ever.

steve_bnk · 03-25-2009, 11:06 AM

The Jewish power elite orchestrated the demise of JC regardless of who hammered the nails.

When I was a kid in the 50s and a RC Jews were persona non grata. For the day I'd say my extended family was prejudiced in some ways, but they had no problem working with or living next to anyone in genral sense and would not have supportd oppression or exclusion, however there was certainly a bad attitude for Jews. And I certainly recal the Jews killed Christ mantra, not from family but in general.

It over the last 5-10 tears that the evngelicals have glommed onto Jews as busom buddies. It is tied to a prophesy that when the temple is rebuilt and old sacrfices/rituals are reinstuted it will signal the second comming. It is also tied to the sale of books and DVDs on the subject...

It may also be linked to the realization that there were not early Christians, there were Jews who accepted JC as the messiah. Eavangelizing the gentiles fell on Paul who spread his persoanl interpretaions and dispnesation from Jewish dietary laws and circumcision. Chritianity as separate from Judaism didn't come until after the Apopstes were long gone.

show_no_mercy · 03-25-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Christianity's core doctrines can NEVER allign with that of its claimed attachment to its mother religion.

Christ was a Jew, his religion was and remained the Jewish; and if now we Jews protest – more thoroughly protestant than under you – against the entire Christianity, against the Augustinian-Thomist and against the Augustinian-Lutheran Christianity and against all and each type of Christianity, old and new? How, if we protest in the name of Christ, in the name of the real Christianity of Christ because this is the real Judaism? More powerful today is our protest than ever formerly. Today Judaism protests no longer without Christ, but rather Judaism with Christ; today Christianity protests against Christianity: our true Christianity, i.e. the real Judaism of us real Jews against your false Christianity. We come to the point of saying that we alone are Christians, as soon as we want – and come to it also through what we did not want and do not want: through our renunciation, through our passion story and via dolorosa! We are Christians as soon as we give this doctrine of Jesus and the apostles its true Jewish interpretation and clarify its place.—Constantin Brunner / "Speech to the Jews: We want him back!", p. 434. In Der Judenhass und die Juden: 428-509. My translation.

There's a difference between Christianity's core doctrines (ie the messiah being a god sitting at the right hand of YHWH, for instance), and Jesus' core doctrines.

No Robots · 03-25-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

It over the last 5-10 tears that the evngelicals have glommed onto Jews as busom buddies. It is tied to a prophesy that when the temple is rebuilt and old sacrfices/rituals are reinstuted it will signal the second comming. It is also tied to the sale of books and DVDs on the subject...

It is also a last desperate move to keep traditional Christian religion alive in the face of the spread of the recognition of Christ's place within Judaism. Thus we have so-called messianic Jews, who are actually Trinitarian Christians operating under a patina of Jewish customs.

storytime · 03-25-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

You weigh the credibility of the witnesses and NT is shown to be supported by rational honest people with an intimate knowledge of the facts.

Shall we start with how many Jews gave their lives defending their beliefs against Rome's grotesque heresy laws - its not even mentioned in the NT, constituting one of the greatest lie-by-omissions imaginable. FYI, the correct figure is 1.2 Million - including all the Preists,the Pharisees and the Saducees the NT spoke so bad about and called them conspirators and dis-believers - even revelling in their deaths as a warrented Roman holocaust - not even considering the Holocaustors! I call the NT's actions here a springtime for the ve vere not avare peoples! I call the defense of the Jews against Rome the greatest display of a faith in Geo-History. Rome lost - the Jews won. Europe failed the test before them.

Was that an error, a typo, a dementia or that knowledge of those facts are irrelevent to those believing Europeans? How can the truth set anyone free when its not even mentioned? :constern01:

What heresy laws? Roman laws were their own to inflict on the empire. Naasayers could like it or not. So maybe some Jews didn't like Roman laws, but I think many did, and saw Romans as sustaining a more comfortable atmosphere than Judaism.

And let us not forget the many Roman lives lost to protecting their standards against Jewish and other militant factions of their day.

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03-25-2009, 11:06 AM	#117
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	The Jewish power elite orchestrated the demise of JC regardless of who hammered the nails. When I was a kid in the 50s and a RC Jews were persona non grata. For the day I'd say my extended family was prejudiced in some ways, but they had no problem working with or living next to anyone in genral sense and would not have supportd oppression or exclusion, however there was certainly a bad attitude for Jews. And I certainly recal the Jews killed Christ mantra, not from family but in general. It over the last 5-10 tears that the evngelicals have glommed onto Jews as busom buddies. It is tied to a prophesy that when the temple is rebuilt and old sacrfices/rituals are reinstuted it will signal the second comming. It is also tied to the sale of books and DVDs on the subject... It may also be linked to the realization that there were not early Christians, there were Jews who accepted JC as the messiah. Eavangelizing the gentiles fell on Paul who spread his persoanl interpretaions and dispnesation from Jewish dietary laws and circumcision. Chritianity as separate from Judaism didn't come until after the Apopstes were long gone.

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