Doug Shaver

Assuming as seems to be the case, that "plane" and "region" are being used interchangeably here . . . .

Yes -- duly noting your derisive "in the air," over which I have seen you and Earl go a few rounds, and on which further comment by me would be superfluous -- that is how I understand him.

GakuseiDon

"Derisive 'in the air'"? Doug, I honestly didn't mean it to be derisive, it is literally the case. Using "spiritual planes" is a modern concept (well, perhaps more a 19th C concept) that you are applying back. There was no thinking of "spiritual planes" or "world of myth" existing in the sublunar region back then at all that I could find. The sublunar realm was literally thought to be in the air. I use "in the air" not to be derisive, but because to talk of "spiritual planes" confuses the issue.

Demon spirits didn't exist on a "spirit plane", but on the ground, in the air, and up to the firmament. As Tertullian says of demons:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...tullian01.html

From dwelling in the air, and their nearness to the stars, and their commerce with the clouds, they have means of knowing the preparatory processes going on in these upper regions, and thus can give promise of the rains which they already feel.

And birds could be found up there as well. As Theophilus writes:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lus-book2.html

And God said, Let the waters bring forth the creeping things that have life, and fowl flying over the earth in the firmament of heaven...

That is the standard thinking of the people of the 1st C as far as I can find. Mythicists talk of "spiritual planes" as though the 1st C people thought in those terms, but having read as many sources as I could find, what I've found doesn't support Earl, and in fact goes against his idea. I've met few mythicists who have actually looked into this for themselves. I look forward to hearing what you find out.

Steven Carr

Galatians 4:25-26 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Where was this Jerusalem supposed to be?

Or the 'third' heaven that Paul mentions?

jakejonesiv

Hi Steven,

The redactor is comparing Paul's revelation of Jesus to Elijah's theophany in 1 Kings 19.

According to the book of Galatians, Paul spent three years on Mount Sinai/Horeb (in Median according to Exodus 3:1, present day Saudi Arabia, "Hagar country") receiving the revelation of Jesus Christ. Here he
learned the mysteries "hidden from the foundation of the world."

About the third heaven:
There has been much discussions in this thread of planes, dimensions, realms, etc. The ancients usually spoke in terms of the number of heavens.

Often, there were alleged to be seven heavens, each associated with a planet (plus the sun and the moon). These were envisioned to be concentric spheres, or upside down bowls, with earth at the bottom.

These spheres were, in ascending order; Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Each of these was conceived to be control by an Archon.


The Pauline author of 2 Cor. 2:12 speaks of being carried to the third heaven. No, he didn't mean Venus! The Marcionites (and therefor the "Paul" of the Marcionite recension) believed in three heavens.

At the bottom was Hyle, matter. This corresponds to the earth.
The lowest heaven above this was the heaven of the angels, the minions of the Creator. (This would correspond to all the seven heavens in the system above).
The second heaven was the realm of the Jewish Creator god, the Demiurge. This "God of the Law" or the "Just God" was conceived to be ignorant of the powers above him.
The third (highest) heaven was the realm of the Highest God, the Father of Jesus, He is described as "The Good God," and a Stranger.

The myth of Esnik is illustrative. It is allegedly the founding myth of Marcionites, and therefore lies behind the Pauline writings. Certainly, this is a later version of the myth (5th century) that had undergone development. But there is nothing inconsistent with Marcion's know doctrines, however, it is to be used with caution. In particluar, Marcion's Ransom theory seems to be a bit circuitous, but works out in the end.

Here is a summary of the myth which according to Esnik was the earliest form of Marcionism.

The God of the Law (masculine principle) and Hyle (feminine principle) cooperated to create man. Hyle (matter) supplied the body of Adam from loam, and The God of the Law insufflated the spirit. However, God and Matter soon fell into a dispute over Adam, with dire consequences for all humans.
When the God of the Law saw that Adam was noble and with dignity for the service, he came and said to him, "Adam, I am God and there is otherwise none. And except me you are not to have another God. If you have another God except me, then know that you will die death.“

So Adam became afraid, and withdrew service from Hyle, refusing to obey. Therefore Hyle created many new gods, that led mankind away from the Creator. As a result, the Creator began to cast the souls of men into hell as they died.

After 29 centuries, the highest God, the "Good God," looked down from the third heaven and took pity on the misery of men tortured by the hot fire. He sent his Son (i.e. Jesus) down to deliver them. Jesus descended incognito (hiding his divinity), and docetically in the likeness of a servant, and in the likeness of men. He performed miracles for the benifit of mankind. The God of the law became jealous and in ignorance instigated his servants to crucify Jesus. Jesus therefore died and was admitted to hell. (Note: this myth would seem to require Jesus to descend to terra, and even below. This is consistent with Ephesisans 4:9-10).

But Jesus emptied hell and carried all the spirits up to the third heaven of his Father. At this the Master of the creatures became enraged, tore his cloths, tore the veil of the temple, and veiled his world in darkness. Then Jesus descended a second time, in full divinity as the Lord of Glory, to the court of the Creator and his minions. This put the creator in the presence of realities. When the Creator saw this, he for the first time realized he was wrong in thinking there was no other god than himself, that he was indeed an inferior god.

Then Jesus convicted the Creator from the words of his own Law. Whoever shed innocent blood shall have his own blood shed. (cf. Deut 19:10-14). The Creator had killed innocent Jesus. Therefore, Jesus by justice of the Law could kill the Creator. But the Creator pled ignorance. He had not know that Jesus was divine, but thought he was a human. (As Creator of man, he had the rights to kill humans as he pleased. Call it a mitigating circumstance).

The Creator proposed a bargin (think of it as a plea bargin). In return for his crime, the Creator would allow the souls of those who believed in Jesus to be whisked up to heaven. Thus the deal was reached; the death of Jesus was the Ransom for the souls of those who will believe.

But this was not the end of the story. As soon as the bargin was reached, Jesus immediately betook himself to Paul and revealed to him and only him the way of salvation.

References:
Marcion, Un mythe négligé
http://assoc.orange.fr/cercle.ernest...rcionmythe.htm


Ein marcionitischer Erlösermythos
Aus Adolf von Harnack: Marcion, 2. Aufl. 1924, 372*-380*
http://www.hermann-detering.de/EsnikvKolb.pdf

Marcionism
Internet Encyclopdia of Religion
http://religion-encyclopedia.com/M/marcionism.htm

Jake Jones IV

GakuseiDon

Are you saying that they were supposed to have been located in "an intermediary plane between heaven and earth"? Can I have your evidence for that? Or evidence for any concept of "fleshy sublunar realm", "intermediary plane", "spiritual plane" or "world of myth" in the sublunar realm generally among people of that time?

Doug Shaver

Well, yeah, in the sense that they were both up. You had to go up to get to either place.

I have no good knowledge of what the ancients thought, exactly, "the air" constituted, but we know it had little do with any modern scientific notions. I'm not sure they even understood the precise relationship between wind and the air. I am suggesting that it is precisely because of our modern thinking about all such things that we intuitively find it absurd to think of a crucifixion happening "in the air." Ancient understandings apparently would have been more accommodating.

Whence the exclusion? Why could the spirit plane not be in the air?

And I look forward to finding it out. With a little luck I'll find out tomorrow how seen I can get a copy of Dillon's book. I've had to delay going to the library because of health problems.

GakuseiDon

I haven't found such ancient understandings. It doesn't mean they aren't there of course. I certainly haven't read all the literature of the times. But I think I've read enough to know that, if people thought that someone could come in the flesh and be crucified in the air, the idea wasn't common. In fact, it goes against what I've read of the nature of demons and spirits.

Why even talk in terms of a sublunar "spirit plane"? When you use that term, what are saying about what people thought in Paul's time? I hope you can see that "spirit plane" is a modern term that means something to you. I don't think it describes 1st C thinking at all about the sublunar realm.

That's why I say that Earl is applying modern concepts on 1st C thinking. They certainly divided the ground from the air, and upper "dry" regions of air with lower "wet" regions of air. But there was no "spirit plane", "world of myth" or "fleshy sublunar realm". The spirits were able to roam from ground to air without needing to pass into a "spirit plane".

Doug Shaver

On this particular issue, Don, I think you and I have gone as far as we can until I get a chance to read Dillon's book or something like it.