the_cave

I agree--which is why I have repeatedly referred to you James' page. I also mentioned the passage in Thackeray supporting some of James' arguments--I can give you a specific reference if you want. Finally, I asked you about a specific example--the usage "received...with pleasure". This is language which is repeated elsewhere in Josephus, i.e. it suggests (not proves: suggests) that Josephus had a hand in the language of the TF. If you don't want to bother responding to this, it's fine--I don't care. But I've at least offered what you've asked for.

spin

You've already said that you don't think Bacon wrote Shakespeare.

ETA: you need to do better than refer to a page written by Chris Price who knows nothing at all about the subject and is merely capable of cobbling together the unsupported opinions of others in a bed of his own assumptions.


spin

the_cave

Well, one thing I've learned: Chris Price and James Hannam are two different people! This helps clear some things up for me And I apologize sincerely to James (and Chris...) for making the confusion.

If phrases that are used in the TF were commonly used, then sure, their presence in the TF is no evidence that Josephus wrote it. But if they aren't, then they suggest that he did. Are you saying that they were common, or not? I'm asking because I don't know and am unaware of any discussion that the language of the TF is unrelated to the rest of Antiquities.

Once again my point isn't that the partial-interpolation theory is correct, but that there are apparently ways to determine whether any of the language of the TF is unique to Antiquities. Do you disagree with this? Or do you think we can't tell? (Besides, I wasn't referring to Chris Price as an authority; I was referring to the authors he cites as authorities. Not only that, but I said I was interested in checking his work.)

spin

Perhaps you should look up stylometrics and see what sorts of sample sizes are necessary (the TF is less than 90 words) and then maybe you'd care to take a stand on the issue.

ETA: Try here as a starter.


spin

Amaleq13

Or they suggest that someone used Josephus' own words from elsewhere to construct their interpolation.

How do you tell the difference?

Amedeo

Did any writer of the Christian scriptures (the evangelists, Paul, etc.) and did any writer about Christ or Christians EVER MEET a Christian??? They all seem to report what they heard from somebody else who reported something about Christ or/and disciples or/and Gentile converts.

If Pontius Pilate had heard anything extraordinary about Jesus of Nazareth, he would have mentioned something at the trial or he would have written to others about that extraordinary man.

What has been reported about the trial deals with theological matters which, said Pilate, were of no concern to him. At any rate, as Jesus of Nazareth was crucified as the (pretending) king of the Judeans, the "internal" affairs between Jesus and the high priest had to be ultimately of a political nature. (The troublesome or rebellious "Chestians" that Tacitus refers to has to do with followers of the royal Jesus and the anti-Roman rebellions that started in Judaea, not with the Jesus begotten by God and the virgin Miriam, who was born under Tiberius and was a miracle-worker nobody believed in -- as he himself complained. Jesus, son of Joseph, son of David, was born before Herod the Great died, before 4 B.C.. The Gospels are composite accounts of two different Jesuses...)

The Christians that are occasionally and indirectly referred to were militant Christians (although they would be sanctimonious); no one hears of those Christians who were pious, apocalyptic, and renouncers of the world. However, it is this second faction that spread amongst the Gentiles, especially after the breakdown of Judaea. Jesus' dream of establishing the kingdom of God, kept alive by the die-hard Judaean royalists and some converts, was put to rest by historical events. The cult of Christ the king re-emerged in Europe with the Illyrian Constantine, who held the cross in one hand and the sword in the other, and by the Crusaders who restored the throne of Jerusalem to an alleged descendant of the royal Jesus.

(Incidentally, in the 13th century, Francis of Assisi preached a new religion; the soldiers of Christ the king and the renouncers of the world on the footsteps of the apocalyptic Christ came to an end, at least in his native land.)

Minimalist

Say, btw, who was the stenographer at that trial? I mean, xtians say we know what was said. Was there a court reporter? Did Pilate write a report?
Did Jesus walk off somewhere and make a few notes for posterity. Did the prosecutor write a best seller? Maybe the priests who dragged him to Pilate wrote an account of the trial....although that doesn't seem very likely, does it?

angelo

The trial, what was said and even Pilot involving himself is myth. Pilot would have had one of his captains oversee the trial. He would not involve himself in any trial of common criminals. We have no Roman account of the events, only the gospels. And they are 85% fabrications according to the Jesus Seminar. Myths were easy to start in those days, as it is today.
Take the myth that Elvis Presley is still alive for instance. In 20 years that will grow to even more absurd claims.

Minimalist

The "speech" was an ancient historian's trick to convey information, aa. When Livy writes that "Fabius Maximus mounted the rostrum and addressed the senate, thusly; "yada, yada, yada" " we can safely assume that Fabius did no such thing. There were no stenographers taking shorthand notes for the Roman Senate just as there were no court reporters for Pilate.

Obviously, the whole thing is a literary invention....along with the idea that the Roman governor would have gotten up in the middle of the night to hold a "trial".

chrisrkline

Don't you know? Jesus shared all of this information, including the contents of his private prayers before arrest, to his disciples after his resurrection.

And Jesus said: "Now children, let me tell you about the kingdom of god and your mission to save all people!"

And Peter responded, "Well, sounds great, but first tell us what Pilate said at the trial."