jgibson000

So now it's only "a significant" meaning, is it? I see you have changed your tune.

And what's with the capitalization of "post" and "faith"?

Nothing wrong with me, even if my name (ysptz) were "Jeff". The problem is with you (yptz) and your lack of awareness/complete failure to understand or grasp that it is wrong lexically, syntactically, and grammatically to claim as you do that a future form of a verb bears, is ever used with, and is correctly translated as if it had, a "present" sense.

And what's with your capitalization of "post", "honesty", and "hell"?

JG

jgibson000

I wasn't trying to be funny. I was simply stating what the substance of your post consisted of.

What credibility?

And what's with the capitalization of "credibility"?

Really? I guess then that the people at, say, (a) Quackwatch who think it necessary and appropriate to "attack" the credibility of medical quacks and cranks in order to show that the claims of these quacks and cranks have no validity and are not to be trusted, or (b) those at Talk/Origins who think that bringing into question the credibility of creationists and creation "scientists" is one of the best ways of exposing creationist nonsense for what it is and for showing that the advocates of creationism as not worth listening to, are also apologists? After all, they certainly bear what you claim is the mark of these creatures.

And what's with the capitalization of "am" and "mark"?

Really? And your source for this claim is what? Is it (and may god help you if it is) only Strongs'?

I do?

Even if this were so (I didn't know that Bob Dole or you knew anything about Greek or the transitive or intransitive use of προάγω), it's funny that -- as you might have seen if you'd taken the time to click on the links given by the source you adduce as proof of your claim --Liddel and Scott and Matthew (cf. Matt 14:22; 21:31 for examples of a transitive use προάγω that doesn't mean "lead") don't know this.

Here's the L & S entry on προάγω

Quote:

proagô [a^], fut. -axô: pf. Act. A. proêcha D.19.18 , 25.8, Paus.3.11.10 :--Med., v. infr.: pf. Pass. in med. sense, v. infr. 1.7 :--lead forward or onward, min es ta oikia Hdt.3.148 , etc.; escort on their way, Id.8.132; tous pezous ou pollên hodon X.Cyr.3.3.23 :--Pass., to be led on, proagomenês tês poleôs epi sumphoras And.2.9 . 2. carry on, haimasian D.55.27 ; produce, Plot.3.7.6 :--Pass., [taxis] eis oxu proêgmenê brought to a point, Arr.Tact.16.8. b. bring on in age, etc., proêgen auton ho chronos eis hôran X.Cyr.1.4.4 :--Pass., epi pleiô proêktai tês kat' iêtrikên epimeleias belong to more advanced medical study, Hp.Medic.13. c. increase, raise a dose, epi hex kotulas Ruf.Fr.68 (v.l. pros-). 3. bring forward, nekron eis to phaneron, ti eis to prosthen, Pl.Lg.960a, Plt.262c; tên phusin eis phôs pasin Id.Ep. 341d ; boulên aporrêton eis phôs hêliou Plu.2.552d ; hoi proagagontes eis phôs, = hoi goneis, Poll.3.8, cf. Hld.7.23; call up an apparition, Thessal. in Cat.Cod.Astr.8(3).137. b. bring before a tribunal, SIG826G22 (ii B.C., Pass.); p. daneion POxy.1562.14 (iii A.D.). 4. lead on, induce, persuade, dolôitinas p. Hdt.9.90 ; hôs hêchreia proagei Th.3.59 : with inf. added, kinduneuein tina p. ib.45; egô proêgagon humas axia tôn progonôn phronein D.18.206 : with Preps., p. thumon es amplakiên Thgn. 386 (nisi leg. paragei); tinas es logous Pl.Ti.22a ; eis misos X.HG 3.5.2 ; tas sungeneias eis echthran, eis anoian tên polin, Isoc.4.174, 8.121; eis orgên ê phthonon ê eleon Arist.Rh.1354a25 ; eis gelôta ib. 1415a37; tina ep' aretên, opp. protrepsasthai, X.Mem.1.4.1; pantas ek . . polemôn epi tên homonoian Isoc.5.141 ; pros . . kakias huperbolên D. 20.36 ; emauton eis apechtheian Id.23.1 :--Med., es gelôta proagagesthai tina move one to laughter, Hdt.2.121.d'; tên hugrotêta autôn tou êthous eis eleon Lycurg.33 ; proaxometh' . . eis anankên D.5.14 : c.inf., touto polemious proagetai hamartanein X.Eq.Mag.5.15 , cf. Aeschin.3.117, Arist.Pol.1270b2:--freq. in Pass., proachthentas eis philoposian X. Mem.1.2.22 ; eis tout' orgês proêchthêsan hôste. . Isoc.20.8 : c. inf., ou gar egôge proachtheiên an eipein D.21.79 , cf. 18.269, Arist.Ph.194a31; proagetai lalein Men.164 ; polla proêgmenon praxai D.5.23 , etc. 5. carry forward, advance, p. tên polin lead it on to power, Th.6.18, D.19.18; p. autên (sc. tên archên) es tode Th.1.75 , cf. Arist. Pol.1274a10; logoisi proagei . . , ergoisi d' oude kinei Cratin.300 ; houtô mechri porrô proêgagon [tên echthran] carried it so far, D.18.163; p. [ta pragmata] epi to beltion Id.Prooem.38 , etc.; tên pragmateian p. eis to prosthen promote the study, Aristox.Fr.Hist.81; [ta mathêmata] Arist.Metaph.985b24; tas technas Id.SE183b29 , cf. Po.1449a13; p. kai diarthrôsai ta kalôs echonta têi perigraphêi carry on and complete . . , Id.EN 1098a22, cf. Pol.1282b35:--Med., es touto [ta Perseôn prêgmata] proêgagonto Hdt.7.50 :--Pass., increase, become rife, D.19.266. b. of persons, promote or prefer to honour, damos eis aristokratian andras ai proagoi kalôs Isyll.3 , cf. Plb.12.13.6, etc.; tinas eis doxan, eph' hêgemonias, Plu.Them.7, Galb.20, etc.; epi mega proachthênai Luc.Alex.55 . c. prefer in the way of choice, esp. in Pass., hai proêgmenai phulai J.AJ4.8.44 : proêgmenos distinguished, outstanding, hôra Philostr. Jun.Im.Praef. 6. in Stoic Philos., of things neither good nor bad but promoted or advanced above the zero point of indifference, proêgmenon . . ho adiaphoron eklegometha Zeno Stoic.1.48 , cf. Aristo ib.83, Chrysipp.ib.3.28, etc.; cf. apoproagô. 7. in pf. Pass. with med. sense, houtô proêktai tous paidas hôste . . has had them brought up in such a way that . . , D.54.23: also in pass. sense, epieikôs tois ethesi proêgmenoi Arist. EN1180a8 . 8. pronounce a discourse, kata theôrian p. panta Philostr.VS2.9.3 ; hai kata schêma proêgmenai tôn hupotheseôn ib.2.4.2. II. intr., lead the way, go before, proage dê Pl.Phdr.227c ; sou proagontos egô ephespomên Id.Phd. 90b , cf. X.An.6.5.6, etc.: with acc. added, proêge polu pantas dub. in J.BJ6.1.6 (leg. pantôn): of a commander, lead an advance, push forward, Plb.2.65.1,3.35.1, etc. 2. metaph., ho proagôn logos the preceding discourse, Pl.Lg.719a; hai p. graphai J.AJ19.6.2 ; ho p. mên PSI5.450.59 (ii A.D.). 3. go on, advance, epi polu proagei têi te biai kai têi ômotêti Decr. ap. D.18.181; ek tôn asaphest erôn epi ta saphestera Arist.Ph.184a19 ; porrô p. hubreôs Clearch.6 (to ergon proêge( [n] ) is v.l. for prosêge in Hdt.9.92); pas ho proagôn kai mê menôn en têi didachêi 2 Ep.Jo.9 : of Time, tês hêmeras êdê proagousês Plb.18.8.1 ; reach, attain to, eis tas oktô muriadas Phld.Ind.Sto. 32 . 4. excel, tinos Dsc.1.71 (v.l. proechei); archaiotêti J.Ap.2.15 .

So -- assuming what is unlikely, i.e., that you can make heads or tails of this -- why do you suppose that they (and Matthew) don't know what you "know"? Is your knowledge of Greek superior to theirs?

And then there is the larger question of whether προάγω in Mk 14:28 is actually transitive, as you claim it is. Why is it, do you think, that BDAG, Robinson, and others say that it isn't? What do you know that they don't?

JG