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Old 05-22-2012, 02:10 PM   #21
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.........................................

(Does Bart Ehrman put much emphasis on dissimilarity as a criteria ? I had a vague idea he didn't.)
Ehrman writes in DJE? (pages 186-7 of Kindle for PC):
The principle is called the "criterion of dissimilarity." If there is a tradition that does not coincide with what we know about the concerns, interests, and agenda of the early Christian communities--or in fact stands at odds with these concerns--then that tradition is more likely to be authentic than a saying that does coincide with the community's interests...

This criterion--and others we will consider in a later chapter--is designed to consider probabilities, not certainties... this is all the historian can do: establish what probably happened in the past. To demand a criterion that yields certainty is to step outside historical research. All we can establish are probabilities.
Thanks Don

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Old 05-22-2012, 07:55 PM   #22
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I challenge anyone to find a pre-20th century theologian who emphasized at length the Jewishness of Jesus.
Heh.
Christ was a Jew, his religion was and remained the Jewish; and if now we Jews protest – more thoroughly protestant than under you – against the entire Christianity, against the Augustinian-Thomist and against the Augustinian-Lutheran Christianity and against all and each type of Christianity, old and new? How, if we protest in the name of Christ, in the name of the real Christianity of Christ because this is the real Judaism? More powerful today is our protest than ever formerly. Today Judaism protests no longer without Christ, but rather Judaism with Christ; today Christianity protests against Christianity: our true Christianity, i.e. the real Judaism of us real Jews against your false Christianity. We come to the point of saying that we alone are Christians, as soon as we want – and come to it also through what we did not want and do not want: through our renunciation, through our passion story and via dolorosa! – We are Christians as soon as we give this doctrine of Jesus and the apostles its true Jewish interpretation and acknowledge its place.--Constantin Brunner / "Rede der Juden: Wir wollen ihn zurück!" ["Speech of the Jews: We want him back!"], 1893.
This is just one example.
Well, Brunner was a literary critic, not a theologian.

What's your next example?
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:00 PM   #23
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This afternoon I was reading Whiston's 1736 translation of The Jewish Wars, and the footnote on the Preface, paragraph 4, states: "That these calamities of the Jews, who were our Savior's murderers, were to be the greatest that had ever been since the beginning of the world, our Savior had directly foretold."

My emphasis.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:07 PM   #24
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This afternoon I was reading Whiston's 1736 translation of The Jewish Wars, and the footnote on the Preface, paragraph 4, states: "That these calamities of the Jews, who were our Savior's murderers, were to be the greatest that had ever been since the beginning of the world, our Savior had directly foretold."

My emphasis.
You must now see how easy it is to detect an "insertion". No Apologetic sources of antiquity made reference to Whiston's footnote for at least 1736 years.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:16 AM   #25
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Is a functioning CAPITAL LOCK a clue that aa is satirical here?
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:20 AM   #26
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Well, Brunner was a literary critic
Heh.

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not a theologian.
Not a true scotsman, either.

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What's your next example?
You can look at several recent studies:
The method of historical criticism ensured that the teachings and life of Jesus would be situated within its historical context, which meant within Palestinian Judaism. The more research was done on first-century Judaism, the clearer it became that Jesus could be seen as an essentially Jewish figure whose teachings were in line with those of other Jewish sages of the time. This realization clashed with the central dogmatic claims about the uniqueness of Jesus and of Christianity. This clash created an identity crisis for nineteenth-century German theologians. Historical criticism had discovered an “ordinary” Jesus while dogmatics and German political identity insisted upon the primordiality and superiority of Christianity. How could a religion of unparalleled spiritual depths be founded by a man who was an ordinary practitioner of an inferior religion?— Racializing Jesus: race, ideology, and the formation of modern biblical scholarship / Shawn Kelley, p. 71
Was Jesus the founder of Christianity or a teacher of Judaism? When he argued the latter based on the New Testament, Abraham Geiger ignited an intense debate that began in nineteenth-century Germany but continues to this day.— Abraham Geiger and the Jewish Jesus / Susannah Heschel.
It is true that Christian theologians tried to avoid the Jewishness of Christ and the New Testament. As we see, however, numerous Jewish scholars from the late nineteenth century onwards were vocal on this subject. Thus there was a division between Gentile and Jew over the historical Jesus. In fact, at least one scholar has linked the dejudaizing tendencies of Christian scholarship to the Holocaust:
Aside from the entirely frivolous contentions of a few, such as Houston Stewart Chamberlain or Walter Grundmann, that Jesus was Aryan, a much harder issue would be to come to any judgement about the impact of the widely prevailing image of Jesus as virtually a non-Jew held in almost all western centers of learning at the beginning of the century and for some time into the century. Certainly anti-Semitism was no special possession of Germany, though its roots seemed to run deeper there, and the countervailing forces provided by a C.G. Montefiore or an Israel Abrahams did not prevail in Germany. But the question of demonstrating a link between historical Jesus portrayals and the subsequent Holocaust would require a monumental investigation of its own and is so amorphous that the probability of success would be minimal. My own suspicion, merely to venture an intuition, is that the treatment of Jesus in scholarship, and thereby in churches as well, had an indirect influence in preparing people to think of Jesus as disconnected from Judaism and therefore to separate the two in making moral evaluations. The same could, of course, be affirmed of places other than Germany. The instinct of Jewish scholarship to attempt to reclaim Jesus was then not merely an exercise in recovering its own history, but a movement of self-survival as well.—The historical Jesus in the twentieth century, 1900-1950 / Walter P. Weaver, p. 256.
It certainly may be the case that Gentile scholars are now forced by guilt to acknowledge the Jewishness of Jesus. However, we shouldn’t forget the courageous Jewish scholars who started this process well before the Holocaust.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:54 AM   #27
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I fully expect a mythicist branch of Christianity to pop up, if it hasn't already.
As Brunner predicted a century ago:
In any case, even if he were made into the abstraction of some contemporary Jewish current of thought, it would still be to the credit of Jewry, making it impossible to find fault with it; after all that, a little reflection always keeps bringing us back to Christ as a unique human individual ... And so it has been going on for nearly two thousand years: the Christ hanged on a tree, the Gnostic Christ, the Christ of religion, the scholastic-Aristotelian Christ; and it will not be long before the present non-existent Christ has just as much power, fame and originality in the world as all the earlier Christs. The Christ who was never born will never die, and will remain for ever as the great constellation in the heavens, outshining all our stars, causing all their fame to fade away! A disgusting originality! Is there nothing we can do against it? Are we so powerless, with our hatred and envy, with all our science? Thus, in its sickness, criticism passionately searches out similarities from every hole and corner of the world, to devalue this originality and strip it of its uniqueness.
Where now, little goy?
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:49 AM   #28
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But the jews dont think jesus was the messiah. The rabbinic authorities all say he was one who preached other gods and thus (presumably) deserved death. How could the davidic messiah paradigm square with jesus consistently being understood to be Balaam? You people dont know WTF you are talking about. You cant have it both ways and misrepresent MY inherented tradition and that of ancestors castong words in their mouths they would rather face death than utter
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:04 PM   #29
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None of the Jewish scholars that I have cited makes the claim that Christ was the Messiah that the Jews had expected. As Brunner states:
You only need to peep into the Gospels to see that Christ's destiny is quite different from the Messianic expectations which are linked to him in these same Gospels, and by his own disciples! The entire Gospel of Matthew has the one and only purpose of showing how Christ's life conforms to the prophecies of Scripture; how different, therefore, how magnificent and wondrous is the life of Christ as presented to us by Matthew's Gospel! The evangelists believe in Christ the Messiah; no more than the critics do they notice that their Messiah Christ speaks about his Messiaship and his divine Sonship in a way totally unlike their Jewish national Messiah—which he never became. But what do the evangelists and the critics notice! The whole Jewish people observed that Jesus was not their Messiah, as do all Jews right up to the present day; the only ones who still fail to observe it are the critics.
At the same time, however, Brunner is critical of the wholesale rejection by Jews of Christ as an exemplar of pure prophetic Judaism.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:09 PM   #30
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None of the Jewish scholars that I have cited makes the claim that Christ was the Messiah that the Jews had expected. As Brunner states:
[INDENT]You only need to peep into the Gospels to see that Christ's destiny is quite different from the Messianic expectations which are linked to him in these same Gospels, and by his own disciples! The entire Gospel of Matthew has the one and only purpose of showing how Christ's life conforms to the prophecies of Scripture; how different, therefore, how magnificent and wondrous is the life of Christ as presented to us by Matthew's Gospel! The evangelists believe in Christ the Messiah; no more than the critics do they notice that their Messiah Christ speaks about his Messiaship and his divine Sonship in a way totally unlike their Jewish national Messiah—which he never became. But what do the evangelists and the critics notice! The whole Jewish people observed that Jesus was not their Messiah
Except for the ones who observed that Jesus was their Messiah.

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