Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CX · 03-02-2004, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by beanpie
This is not my or someone else's opinion. This is based on writings, from the Bible .

Well firstly, describing any person as "black" is both vague and inaccurate. My son pointed out to a friend of his that another friend of theirs was not "black" at all but, "sort of brownish". Consequently if your treatise is to have any meaning whatever you need carefully define what "black" means. Usually when people say "black" they really mean "of African origin". Clearly this is not the case with Jesus as he was Palestinian. Was his skin darker than the average modern European's? Probably, but who cares? Jesus undoubtedly didn't look like me (I'm as WASPy as you get) and he probably didn't look like Michael Jordan either. Ultimately though, what the hell difference does it make?

beanpie · 03-02-2004, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Ultimately though, what the hell difference does it make?

actually, it should not mater. Certain people, have made it an issue.

Doctor X · 03-02-2004, 09:10 AM

Well it is an issue that has been abused. This reminds me of attempts to make Hitler Jewish--wonderful irony.

Certainly, racism has, and still is, "justified" with the OT trying to make anyone not a certain race derived from "bad stock." Indeed, slavery was "justified" based on the whole Ham serving thing.

So, I think this is an attempt to "turn the tables" on racists. The problem is two wrongs do not make a right, in a sense. Unless one uses this as satire to demonstrate the ridiculousness of the "white supremacist" readings, I find it a wasted effort.

--J.D.

CX · 03-02-2004, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by beanpie
actually, it should not mater. Certain people, have made it an issue.

Well then let me ask you this. Why do YOU care what color Jesus' skin was?

beanpie · 03-02-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Well then let me ask you this. Why do YOU care what color Jesus' skin was?

because, I live in a country (America), where the majority of Christians beieve he was Caucasian.

Doctor X · 03-02-2004, 11:18 AM

. . . and many think he rose from the dead. . . .

beanpie, this is important because it determines how to approach this and the other thread.

Are you looking for evidence for what Junior and Big Daddy were thought to look like?

Do you believe either of them were black as in African?

Are you looking for evidence to rebut claims that they were?

--J.D.

beanpie · 03-02-2004, 06:40 PM

It is as simple as this. Though some would deny it, God, in the Bible, is describd as

Quote:

And I saw the color of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within him, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward (Ez. 1:26-7.?

Quote:

and the HAIR ON HIS HEAD LIKE THE PURE WOOL. (Dan.7:9.]

Demigawd · 03-02-2004, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by beanpie
It is as simple as this. Though some would deny it, God, in the Bible, is describd as

Well, Merriam-Webster defines amber as "a variable color averaging a dark orange yellow". Can't say that I've seen too many orange-yellow people.

In regards to the wool hair bit, I've known many non-black people to have wooly hair. Besides, wool could refer to the color, not texture.

Not to disparage your scholastic quest, beanpie, but why are you coming to a SECULAR site to show "evidence" that the Abrahamic god is/was black? It's not as if the majority of posters here believe in that particular god to begin with, much less be concerned with his supposed ethnicity.

However, I do sympathize with your desire to show up the "God is a white man" myth. I grew up on the other side of that nonsense in regards to being told often that "black people may have descended from monkeys, but us white folk were created in God's image." So, give 'em hell, but don't automatically trust information, particularly that which is found on the web, just because it is attractive to your stance.

Doctor X · 03-02-2004, 08:48 PM

beanpie:

Quote:

It is as simple as this. Though some would deny it, God, in the Bible, is describd as. . . .

The problem is that both Ezekiel and Daniel are late texts and irrelevant to how people in earlier periods would have conceived YHWH or El. I cannot find the on-line the coin with YHWH's depiction, but it appears similar to that of other deities.

A comprehensive, exhaustive, and . . . zzzzZZZZZZzzzzz . . . text, Gods, Goddesses, and Images of God in Ancient Israel discusses the Ezek 1:26b-27 passage by comparing it to a picture

Quote:

Nevertheless, together with the representations of a deity shown in the act of blessing in a lotus nimbus . . . on tridacna bowls that have also been found in Judah, it presents an analogous picture to that of the Yahweh visions in Ezek 1:26b-27 and is connected with the concept of kãbôd. In Ezekiel, the figure has a mixed form, beig only partially anthropomorphic, with a human upper body and a "radiant" lower body. . . .

typical to this complete but tedious book, it does not define "kãbôd" for another couple of pages as "the likeness of the glory." The authors explain:

Quote:

In contrast to Isaiah, who at the end of the eighth century could still see Yahweh in human form (Isaiah 6 . . .), Ezekiel, at the beginning of the sixth century, describes the appearance of "the likeness of glory (kãbôd) of Yahweh" only partially by use of anthropomorphic figures. . . . by the time one comes to Zechariah, ca. 520, in contrast to the older prophets, this prophet no longer deals with Yahweh directly but communicates through the mediation of a "messenger" or "angel"; nor does he see Yahweh himself but sees only the lampstand as a cultic symbol.

the depiction--which you will have to take my word for or find this book probably next to Significant Swiss Naval Victories in the library--is generic and does not appear anything remotely considered African. As Demigawd noted, "amber" is not conclusive, and I will add that "wool" is also white . . . or grey.

With regards to Isaiah :

Quote:

. . . I saw YHWH sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

well . . . that is conclusive.

The bottom line there is no evidence that justifies the claims of that website.

--J.D.

Reference:

Keel O, Uehlinger C. Gods, Goddesses, and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1995.

[Edited to include the reference.--Ed.]

beanpie · 03-02-2004, 11:38 PM

unfortunately, shall be out of town and away from a computer for 'bout a week and a half.

:notworthy

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03-02-2004, 09:10 AM	#13
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Well it is an issue that has been abused. This reminds me of attempts to make Hitler Jewish--wonderful irony. Certainly, racism has, and still is, "justified" with the OT trying to make anyone not a certain race derived from "bad stock." Indeed, slavery was "justified" based on the whole Ham serving thing. So, I think this is an attempt to "turn the tables" on racists. The problem is two wrongs do not make a right, in a sense. Unless one uses this as satire to demonstrate the ridiculousness of the "white supremacist" readings, I find it a wasted effort. --J.D.

03-02-2004, 11:18 AM	#16
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	. . . and many think he rose from the dead. . . . beanpie, this is important because it determines how to approach this and the other thread. Are you looking for evidence for what Junior and Big Daddy were thought to look like? Do you believe either of them were black as in African? Are you looking for evidence to rebut claims that they were? --J.D.

03-02-2004, 11:38 PM	#20
beanpie Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: voston Posts: 699	unfortunately, shall be out of town and away from a computer for 'bout a week and a half. :notworthy

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