Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Santas little helper · 09-13-2005, 11:01 AM

So you're saying that jew is meant as an "ethnic" description and has nothing to do with
their religious beliefs.But why are they emphasizing the jew part ?

Alethias · 09-13-2005, 11:24 AM

Jew is an ethnic term that is also used as a religious term. If you use the word Jew you might mean a person born of a Jewish mother or you might mean a practitioner of Judaism.

It is common in Jewish culture to have a very high tolerance of Jews becoming atheist, or buddhist or New Age, and a very low tolerance for converting to christianity. The reason is 2-fold, at least in my opinion. 1)Jews don't proselytize. You'll never see a Chasidic rabbi standing on a street corner trying to get Non-Jews to convert to Judaism. If non-jews try to convert, they go though a long process of trying to discourage them as a matter of policy. 2)Jews who convert to christianity almost invariably abandon their identity as part of the modern jewish community and with that they abandon all the traditions that are vital to Judaism.

Booklady · 09-13-2005, 11:50 AM

Jews who convert to Christianity tend to come in two varieties: 1) those who want to maintain a tie to their traditions become Messianic Jews, worshipping in congregations which conduct what *looks* like a traditional synagogue service, but is overlaid with Christian themes; 2) those who (like me) were usually secular to begin with, join a regular church. Theologically I'm Christian, but I'm still ethnically Jewish. I would never eat pastrami on white bread.

Cherokee · 09-13-2005, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plognark

Name only, as far as I know.

Aren't these guys related to Messianic Jews too? Aren't they both sort of hidden fundamentalist Baptist movements?

Yep! Jews for jesus are generally of Jewish bloodlines who accept "the ULTIMATE Jew" - Yeshua - as messiah. Messianic Jews are, oftentimes, wanna-be Jews. They're usually (at least the many I knew when I, too, was one), fundamental christians who get caught up in the legalism of the bible, considering ALL of it inerrant!

A main goal of both groups is to convert as many Jews as possible (actually, we used to claim they were now "completed" Jews, if you can believe that arrogant crap). How embarrassing to ever have been associated with them.

Javaman · 09-13-2005, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trunks2k

I had heard a few jokes about "Jews for Jesus" and had assumed that it was just a made up group used for ironic jokes. I never thought it was a real group.

Holy Crap, you've been here longer than me and you haven't had any conversations about this with our resident JforJ folks? AFAIK, Magus55 is happily ensconced in the belief as are a couple of others. I know your post wasn't really about the group but, as many others have already provided info, here's some more:

The Religious Tolerance page has a section (but is advertisement heavy):

MESSIANIC JUDAISM

There is a sublink there for Jews for Judaism. Probably a better source is the now ubiquitous Wikipedia:

Messianic Judaism

IvanJames · 09-13-2005, 04:44 PM

OK, I did this for a bit. Basically, they recruit by finding secular Jews who don't know much about Judaism. Then, they give you lots of Old Testament BS, reinterpereted in a way that (I now realise) no religious Jew would. You know, the fundie way.

I now find terms such as "completed Jew" extremely patronizing. I especially don't like it when non-Jewish fundies become involved with messianic Judaism, saying they're "called to god's chosen people." Or when they write it "G-d".

---Ivan James

whichphilosophy · 09-13-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trunks2k

I had heard a few jokes about "Jews for Jesus" and had assumed that it was just a made up group used for ironic jokes. I never thought it was a real group. That was until yesterday when a group of Jews For Jesus were handing out pamphlets outside the subway. They offered me one, but being enviromentally concious I told them I would just pick up one of the 3 dozen that littered the ground around them.

It was an odd pamphet, the front warning me to beware of religious fanatics handing out pamphlets. Part of the inside was a question asking you to check the thing that is most important in your life, one option was "purple things." I thought it was all just a very clever joke. But the inside of the pamphlet was your standard prostelizing stuff, saying god should be most important in your life (that option, btw was not given in the question), and proudly proclaiming the Jews for Jesus to be religious fanatics.

Fastforward to this morning and I'm getting off the subway, and there's another (smaller) group of Jews for Jesus handing out pamphlets. One girl offered me one, and I just told her "No thanks, the pamphlet you gave me yesterday told me to be careful of religious fanatatics handing out pamphlets"

They've been around for a few years. I remember seeing their pamphlets. Well the first Christians were jews after all, and Christ was a Jew (which the Church did not like to admit for nearly 2,000 years and the Jews don't accept).

Regards,

Mujahid_Munafiq · 09-13-2005, 05:45 PM

Jews for Judaism totally destroys their arguments.

And yes, Jews lose their "Jewishness" the moment they become Christians. It doesn't matter what else they become (atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist) but the moment they become Christian they lose their Jewish identity.

Jews have been rejecting Christ for over 2000 years. To accept him after such a long time is a sign of defeat and weakness. That's why Christian "Jews" are very much looked down upon.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

Booklady · 09-13-2005, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mujahid_Munafiq

And yes, Jews lose their "Jewishness" the moment they become Christians. It doesn't matter what else they become (atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist) but the moment they become Christian they lose their Jewish identity.

That all depends on who's doing the identifying. My husband's Reform synagogue still recognizes me as a Jew, although I suspect the Conservative and Orthodox congregations down the road wouldn't.

trunks2k · 09-13-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

Holy Crap, you've been here longer than me and you haven't had any conversations about this with our resident JforJ folks?

I tend to stay out of GRD

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09-13-2005, 11:01 AM	#11
Santas little helper Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Above the ground Posts: 1,050	So you're saying that jew is meant as an "ethnic" description and has nothing to do with their religious beliefs.But why are they emphasizing the jew part ?

09-13-2005, 11:24 AM	#12
Alethias Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 7,198	Jew is an ethnic term that is also used as a religious term. If you use the word Jew you might mean a person born of a Jewish mother or you might mean a practitioner of Judaism. It is common in Jewish culture to have a very high tolerance of Jews becoming atheist, or buddhist or New Age, and a very low tolerance for converting to christianity. The reason is 2-fold, at least in my opinion. 1)Jews don't proselytize. You'll never see a Chasidic rabbi standing on a street corner trying to get Non-Jews to convert to Judaism. If non-jews try to convert, they go though a long process of trying to discourage them as a matter of policy. 2)Jews who convert to christianity almost invariably abandon their identity as part of the modern jewish community and with that they abandon all the traditions that are vital to Judaism.

09-13-2005, 11:50 AM	#13
Booklady Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 43	Jews who convert to Christianity tend to come in two varieties: 1) those who want to maintain a tie to their traditions become Messianic Jews, worshipping in congregations which conduct what looks like a traditional synagogue service, but is overlaid with Christian themes; 2) those who (like me) were usually secular to begin with, join a regular church. Theologically I'm Christian, but I'm still ethnically Jewish. I would never eat pastrami on white bread.

09-13-2005, 04:44 PM	#16
IvanJames Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 393	OK, I did this for a bit. Basically, they recruit by finding secular Jews who don't know much about Judaism. Then, they give you lots of Old Testament BS, reinterpereted in a way that (I now realise) no religious Jew would. You know, the fundie way. I now find terms such as "completed Jew" extremely patronizing. I especially don't like it when non-Jewish fundies become involved with messianic Judaism, saying they're "called to god's chosen people." Or when they write it "G-d". ---Ivan James

09-13-2005, 05:45 PM	#18
Mujahid_Munafiq Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: San Ramon, California Posts: 359	Jews for Judaism totally destroys their arguments. And yes, Jews lose their "Jewishness" the moment they become Christians. It doesn't matter what else they become (atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist) but the moment they become Christian they lose their Jewish identity. Jews have been rejecting Christ for over 2000 years. To accept him after such a long time is a sign of defeat and weakness. That's why Christian "Jews" are very much looked down upon. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

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