Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 10-22-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickpecoraro

I have always wondered why the Jews who wrote the NT invented baptism.

There is no Baptism in the OT.

nickpecoraro

"Jews" did not write the NT, maybe that is why...

And, also, there is no prophecy in the OT for John the Baptist to baptise anyone.

lycanthrope · 10-22-2008, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Dear Lycanthrope,

Apparently apostle Mr. Thomas did not baptise with water but used oil instead. Perhaps this related to the annointment business?

Best wishes,

Pete

Hi mountainman

I am not aware of Thomas baptising with oil, where did you get that?

Regards,
the werewolf

mountainman · 10-22-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycanthrope

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Dear Lycanthrope,

Apparently apostle Mr. Thomas did not baptise with water but used oil instead. Perhaps this related to the annointment business?

Best wishes,

Pete

Hi mountainman

I am not aware of Thomas baptising with oil, where did you get that?

Regards,
the werewolf

Dear Lycanthrope,

It appears to be all over the internet. Here is a sample from such as

Quote:

After a doxology Thomas casts oil upon their heads
and they were baptised in a large vat in the name of
the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ...

The Acts of Thomas: Introduction, Text, and Commentary
Albertus Frederik Johannes Klijn - 2003 -
Religion - 258 pages

I am telling you that IMO the author of "The Acts of Thomas" was that pesky Arius of Alexandria who had a time machine and went back to the second (or was it third) century and wrote "The Acts of Thomas". The code name given to him by the ecclesiatical brigade was Leutius Charinus. There are stacks of other suss things wrong with the acts of Thomas, which is a very long tract. Right at he very beginning we have the apostles gathered together casting lots, not for the raiment, but for the nations themselves. Thomas got the lot that said he had to go to India, to convert the Indians from Hinduism and Buddhism to christianity, but he flatly refused to go. The apostles could not make him go, so Jesus orders him point blank. But our Thomas refuses to be commanded by Jesus. So what does Jesus do? The next morning he takes Thomas down to the slave market, and sells him to to a travelling Indian merchant, and received a bill of sale in exchange. Thus begins Thomas the Tank's exiting adventures in India.

"The Acts of Thomas" is a satire (of the Constantinian canon), and its author may as well have been Arius of Alexandria. He was an ascetic and a gnostic and in this text he literally buried another more ancient text, called The Hymn of the Pearl.

Best wishes,

Pete

nickpecoraro · 10-22-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfmwinnie

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickpecoraro

I have always wondered why the Jews who wrote the NT invented baptism.

There is no Baptism in the OT.

nickpecoraro

That is not entirely accurate. Jews have a ritual immersion that did exist at the time of the temple and remains of them have been found. Jews had to ritually wash before going to the temple and at other times. This washing was a full immersion.

Having been to a Jewish mikvah for a ritual immersion it was very evident to me (a former Christian) what the similarities were - I went when I converted to Judaism and was astonished at how like a baptism it was in many ways (very different too). Some of the ways it is different - it's private because you are naked, you take a bath before entering the mikvah waters and you scrupulously clean every inch of your body including your hair, your finger nails, everything, you have to be dunked 3 times and every bit of hair ect. has to go under. Most of the time women do this after their period but men go sometimes. There are even mikvahs for dishes.

A link to a first century mikvah picture that has been excavated is here

It is just not the same thing.
nickpecoraro

premjan · 10-22-2008, 12:04 PM

Full immersion in water is a Hindu thing (water very significant for Hindus - funerals are by burning on a wood pyre which is set afloat on a river) - maybe the Christians got it from the Persians or something like that. It is meant to be full immersion rather than scrubbing the crap out of your nails or whatever. Water baptism is part of the Hindu ritual coming of age.

No Robots · 10-22-2008, 12:20 PM

According to rabbinical teachings, which dominated even during the existence of the Temple (Pes. viii. 8), Baptism, next to circumcision and sacrifice, was an absolutely necessary condition to be fulfilled by a proselyte to Judaism (Yeb. 46b, 47b; Ker. 9a; 'Ab. Zarah 57a; Shab. 135a; Yer. Kid. iii. 14, 64d).--"Baptism", Jewish Encyclopedia.

premjan · 10-22-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

The real significance of the rite of Baptism can not be derived from the Levitical law; but it appears to have had its origin in Babylonian or ancient Semitic practise. As it was the special service administered by Elisha, as prophetic disciple to Elijah his master, to "pour out water upon his hands" (II Kings iii. 11), so did Elisha tell Naaman to bathe seven times in the Jordan, in order to recover from his leprosy (II Kings v. 10). The powers ascribed to the waters of the Jordan are expressly stated to be that they restore the unclean man to the original state of a new-born "little child."

It is apparently more of a Babylonian practice.

bacht · 10-22-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickpecoraro

I have always wondered why the Jews who wrote the NT invented baptism.

There is no Baptism in the OT.

nickpecoraro

Inter-testamental practice, such as the Essenes and/or Qumranites?

There's little OT support for resurrection either

andrewcriddle · 10-22-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycanthrope

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Dear Lycanthrope,

Apparently apostle Mr. Thomas did not baptise with water but used oil instead. Perhaps this related to the annointment business?

Best wishes,

Pete

Hi mountainman

I am not aware of Thomas baptising with oil, where did you get that?

Regards,
the werewolf

Baptism in the Acts of Thomas seems to have involved anointing with oil followed by baptism im water.

Quote:

And when Narcia had brought these things, Mygdonia stood before the apostle with her head bare; and he took the oil and poured it on her head, saying: Thou holy oil given unto us for sanctification, secret mystery whereby the cross was shown unto us, thou art the straightener of the crooked limbs, thou art the humbler (softener) of hard things (works), thou art it that showeth the hidden treasures, thou art the sprout of goodness; let thy power come, let it be established upon thy servant Mygdonia, and heal thou her by this freedom. And when the oil was poured upon her he bade her nurse unclothe her and gird a linen cloth about her; and there was there a fountain of water upon which the apostle went up, and baptized Mygdonia in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. And when she was baptized and clad, he brake bread and took a cup of water and made her a partaker in the body of Christ and the cup of the Son of God, and said: Thou hast received thy seal, get for thyself eternal life. And immediately there was heard from above a voice saying: Yea, amen. And when Narcia heard that voice, she was amazed, and besought the apostle that she also might receive the seal; and the apostle gave it her and said: Let the care of the Lord be about thee as about the rest.

This seems related to Syrian and/or Gnostic baptismal practice.

Andrew Criddle

lycanthrope · 10-22-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycanthrope

Hi mountainman

I am not aware of Thomas baptising with oil, where did you get that?

Regards,
the werewolf

Dear Lycanthrope,

It appears to be all over the internet. Here is a sample from such as

Quote:

After a doxology Thomas casts oil upon their heads
and they were baptised in a large vat in the name of
the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ...

The Acts of Thomas: Introduction, Text, and Commentary
Albertus Frederik Johannes Klijn - 2003 -
Religion - 258 pages

I am telling you that IMO the author of "The Acts of Thomas" was that pesky Arius of Alexandria who had a time machine and went back to the second (or was it third) century and wrote "The Acts of Thomas". The code name given to him by the ecclesiatical brigade was Leutius Charinus. There are stacks of other suss things wrong with the acts of Thomas, which is a very long tract. Right at he very beginning we have the apostles gathered together casting lots, not for the raiment, but for the nations themselves. Thomas got the lot that said he had to go to India, to convert the Indians from Hinduism and Buddhism to christianity, but he flatly refused to go. The apostles could not make him go, so Jesus orders him point blank. But our Thomas refuses to be commanded by Jesus. So what does Jesus do? The next morning he takes Thomas down to the slave market, and sells him to to a travelling Indian merchant, and received a bill of sale in exchange. Thus begins Thomas the Tank's exiting adventures in India.

"The Acts of Thomas" is a satire (of the Constantinian canon), and its author may as well have been Arius of Alexandria. He was an ascetic and a gnostic and in this text he literally buried another more ancient text, called The Hymn of the Pearl.

Best wishes,

Pete

I see, its not in the NKJV bible so I didnt know about it.

Thanks for sharing

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10-22-2008, 12:04 PM	#15
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Full immersion in water is a Hindu thing (water very significant for Hindus - funerals are by burning on a wood pyre which is set afloat on a river) - maybe the Christians got it from the Persians or something like that. It is meant to be full immersion rather than scrubbing the crap out of your nails or whatever. Water baptism is part of the Hindu ritual coming of age.

10-22-2008, 12:20 PM	#16
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	According to rabbinical teachings, which dominated even during the existence of the Temple (Pes. viii. 8), Baptism, next to circumcision and sacrifice, was an absolutely necessary condition to be fulfilled by a proselyte to Judaism (Yeb. 46b, 47b; Ker. 9a; 'Ab. Zarah 57a; Shab. 135a; Yer. Kid. iii. 14, 64d).--"Baptism", Jewish Encyclopedia.

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